Have you come across any interesting Wildlife News? March 28, 2011

Note that this replaces the 26th edition. That editionwill now move slowly into the depths of the blog. 

Cottonwood in Lamar Valley, Yellowstone National Park. © Ken Cole

Cottonwood in Lamar Valley, Yellowstone National Park. © Ken Cole

Please do not post entire articles here, just the link, the title, and your comments. Posting other people’s writing is a violation of copyright law and  takes up too much space.

366 Responses to “Have you come across any interesting Wildlife News? March 28, 2011”

  1. Woody Says:

    This is in regards to the decrease in elk numbers in the West Fork of the Bitterroot River in Montana.

    The objective for the number of Elk in the management plan for HD 250 has been increasing (year-objective):
    1992 980-1062
    2005 1120-1680
    2007 1600-2400
    According to the graphs shown in the DEA the elk population never exceeded 1500 elk until 2001. In
    in 1980-1984 and 1989 it was lower than it is currently.

    Talk about raising the bar.

    Click to access DEA_WFB_Wolf_110324_No_Appendices.pdf

    • WM Says:


      I do not know the answer to this question, but is it possible that recent fires (DEA, p. 24) in portions of Unit 250 resulted habitat improvement for elk a couple years later, boosting population (and hunter harvest to meet new management objectives), then as wolves increased in number the elk correspondingly decreased in population from both sources, plus cougar and bear?

      Habitat would likely not remain favorable unless there were additional fires, timber harvest or other vegetative management. Don’t know what the weather was like over that period but that would have to be factored in as well.

      So, from a management perspective, “changing the bar” can have lots of reasons.

      • Woody Says:

        You use a lot of conjecture with out any backup information.

        It appears that new, possibly unrealistic, managememt objectives were initiated.

      • WM Says:


        I don’t know how to respond to you on that concern, other than to point you to the DEA at p. 10, where it states the Commission increased the management objective to the steep numbers you reference in 2007. We can wait for Jerry Black to report back on whether there was some legislative mandate for it (I doubt it though).

        Then, later in the DEA beginning at about p. 21 numerous large forest fires are discussed as improving habitat beginning in about 2000, and thus increasing elk populations feeding in the recovering burns a couple years later. If you want to call that “conjecture” on my part “with out back up,” that’s fine, but it is kind of an ill-informed statement you make. If there is “conjecture” your beef is with MTGFP, not me. All I did was read their contractor’s report, and the logic that appears there linking increasing population with habitat, and thus responses to the increased elk population, and a growing wolf population working on an available food supply.

        If you give some thought to it, this is kind of what happened in Yellowstone after the late 80’s fires, with a spike in elk population and a wolf population that went up to near 200 wolves (I think) then coming back down to near 100 after they went through the elk and migrating out. Of course, because that was in the Park there were no hunters and an over optimistic hunter harvest objective there, as there is in the Bitterroot 250 unit.

        This phenomenon is obviously alot more complex, and they don’t have the answers (hence the start of the discussion on the other thread), but MTGFP seems intent on working on controlling the wolf numbers to just hold the line.

        Curiously the Idaho- Lolo (GM Units 10 and 12) are just on the other side of the Bitterroot Divide, to the NW, not more than 30-40 miles away, just a long day’s walk for a wolf. Maybe that says something too, while ID seeks their own 10(j) action there.

  2. Savebears Says:

    Seems as it the 104 pound “coyote” that was shot in Missouri a few months ago, has turned out to not quite be what they thought it was..


    • Woody Says:

      Thanks, it is always nice to have a followup on interesting stories from previous posts.

    • REChizmar Says:

      Like the way MO officials give a free pass to adults who lie to govt. officials.

  3. Nancy Says:

    +Having mountain lions around again seems scarier than it really is because it’s new,” said Beringer. “But it would be a terrible pity if people let that keep them from enjoying the outdoors. We don’t let fear of traffic accidents or lightning keep us indoors. We shouldn’t let fear of predators scare us unnecessarily either.+

    What a profound statement especially when it comes to mankind’s relationship in recent years with wildlife.

    • Paul White Says:

      if lions are re-establishing themselves in Missouri then they’re doing better than I thought 🙂 Makes me happy! Maybe they’ll get east of the Mississippi River sooner than I thought.

  4. vickif Says:

    Different note: I am traveling through Idaho over to the Hoh this June. Any input on where to camp and fish while passing through?

    • timz Says:

      what route will you be taking vicki

      • vickif Says:

        I can go any route. I will probably go to Seattle on the lower (84 I believe) and come back across the upper part of Idaho into MT (Glacier/Kalispell). The main road goes through Twin Falls, but if memory serves, the NOrthern portion is more scenic(Bitter Root Range).
        My husband has been tying flies like a mad man. I think we have about 30 of every fly imaginable. LOL I told him about a Dolly I caught there years and years ago. He is itching to show me up.

      • Ken Cole Says:

        If you are going through southern Idaho you might want to check out Silver Creek just south of Bellevue off Highway 20. It’s a nice place and the fishing is blue ribbon for browns and rainbows.

        I like driving to Yellowstone from Boise via highway 20. It’s much more scenic than I-84

      • Woody Says:

        Cape Flattery, at the NW tip of the Olympic Peninsula, is well worth a visit. A beautiful spot. I am also partial to the Steens Mountains in Oregon, but it is a bit off track. http://www.experiencewa.com/scenic-byways/cape-flattery.aspx

      • vickif Says:

        Thanks Gents,
        I always enjoy input from others. Rand McNally cannot give me quite the insight that people who have traveled can.
        I will do the Cape for sure. I have been wanting to do some photos there.
        I think I will do the 20 route on the way back.
        I go to YNP atleast 2 times a year, and haven’t explored Idaho nearly as much as I would like.
        I truly appreciate the tips!

      • Larry Zuckerman Says:

        Vicki – I often find Yellowstone a bit too used and instead head south of West Yellowstone into the Henry’s Fork country of Idaho – nice in Harriman State Park but south of there and north of Rexburg there are some more remote stretches to fish and enjoy the wildlife using FS Access Roads.

        That’s the Caribou-Targhee NF and it is accessed via Hwy 20 that Ken Cole recommended.

        Of course, even though not in Yellowstone, need to mind the grizzlies if camping out.

    • WM Says:


      Not to plan your itinerary, but here are some thoughts. You can take the lazy and slow Route 12 from Lewiston all the way to Yakima (aka I-82 for a portion of the way, or you can intersect it from the more southerly I-84 route), then west, to four miles beyond Naches to the junction of Hiway 410 (take 410 through Mt. Rainier if you are not towing anything as there are some narrow and steep S curves on the west side). There are a number of campgrounds along the way. Most FS campgrounds are identified on a WA Gazetteer by Delorme, which is a good map to have for travel.

      North to Seattle, remaining on 410 on the north side of Mt. Rainier (or go south on 123 at the Cayuse pass junction on the south side of Rainier through Paradise, but that is a long way) then on I-5 heading north ( avoid I-5 rush hours), then take the Edmonds-Kingston ferry (104) then 101 to Port Angeles (in PA take the Blackball ferry for a day trip to Victoria on Vancouver Island, or drive up to Hurricane Ridge in Olympic National Park). Then drive west a few miles to the Elwha River, and camp at Altaire campground (small but very nice, and along the river). See the waterfalls at Madison Creek (at the park entrance).

      From PA head to Forks on 101, along Lake Crescent (you can take a detour to Sol Duc Hotsprings or stop to see Marymere falls) then head south to the Hoh. The Lower Hoh is not particularly scenic in the summer, because of all the exposed rock bare channel from the really high winter flows. However, if you go to the Lower Hoh, take the Cottonwood Rd. (there is a small DNR campground there but not really maintained with fishing access, and can be a bit buggy if wet). If you drive all the way to the end of the road, there is a small piece of Olympic NP strip, and you can walk out to the mouth to where the Hoh meets the Pacific Ocean (a great place to renew the soul). On the south side is the Hoh Indian Reservation (100 enrolled members –some have called it a meth zone), and you may see nets across the river there Mon-Wed.

      If you go further south on Hiway 101 to the Upper Hoh road, take the road all the way into ONP to the Hoh Rain Forest Visitor Center and walk the Hall of Mosses. Rain there is measured in feet, 12 -16 feet per year, as you may know.

      Catch Dolly Vardon on the Hoh which are now called “bull trout,” closely genetically related, but which are ESA protected, so ya gott put them back. There are lots of bull trout in the Hoh, from my experience catching them while going for steelhead.

      You could make a loop following Hiway 101 all the way south to Aberdeen, and again hit Route 12 for your return to ID. It is a long drive, but mostly scenic (with more than a few miles of ugly clear cut remnants from years ago) with spots you can go down to the Ocean in ONP. A favorite is Ruby Beach. There are a few campgrounds all along there on the coastal strip. Kalaloch is a good one. Run up the Quinault River on the South Shore Road to Quinault Lodge for a peek at the lake (it can raise something like 10 feet overnight in a winter rainstorm). There is a FS ranger station there across the parking lot, and they might give you some ideas of places to fish. There are a few campgrounds along the way.


      Cape Flattery and Neah Bay are a great trip, but the road is a bit windy and it takes awhile to get there. Stop and see the small but interesting Makah Museum. Really nice folks there, but some tribal members in the small community don’t care much for tourists, so do respect where you are. Nice trail down to Tatoosh Is. Lots of bald eagles around.

      • vickif Says:

        Wow, and thanks. I may let you plan th itenerary!
        I was in the Hoh last June, and fell in love with it. It was like a whole other planet. We hikes the Hall of Mosses.
        I took a photo of a moss coveres pay phone and nick named it the Randy Moss phone. My hubby was not amused.
        I did get some photos of an eagle bathing in a tide pool, and it was beautiful, but that was near La Push. I saw only one otter, and it was a river otter, but cool none the less. The museum in the town was closed when we were there. We managed to cram Deception Pass, Whidbey, Forks, ONP and a whale watching tour in by Anacortes is 4 days. It was non-stop, but if everyone were to see the places we went, they would all raise a sword for conservation.
        I got some pictures of the Elwah dam, which I will be thrilled to have before and after shots of.
        I had a fascinating conversation with a hatcheries employee. He literally showed me the process they will be using to fertilize king eggs at the dam in order to attempt to get them to become a larger spawning population.
        The world is a class room, you gotta love all there is to learn.
        Thanks so much!

    • Jerry Black Says:

      vickif……if you end up in the Ellensburg area (I-90) you’ll be in Yakima River country and some of the best fly fishing in the West. Take hwy 10 out of Ellensburg to Cle Elum. It follows the river most of the way. There’s also the canyon south of Ellensburg, but that gets hit pretty hard.
      Here’s some info on the area….

      In Idaho not far from Arco on 20 and Howe on 33, the “Little Wood” and the” Little Lost” (a sink drain stream) are beautiful high desert streams. Lots of red bands and no people in the Little Lost.

      • vickif Says:

        Thanks. I am starting to wish my 18 days off was 18 years. I don’t think I have been this excited to drive places in several years.
        I appreciate the links and info.
        I will have to put some photso up. I may just write this trip up as the wolves.wordpress.com tour.

  5. vickif Says:

    Since we have been talking about how the generations and their mind-sets are changing, I chuckled tonight when my daughter came in to tell me about her college biology test.
    She said”I got a 29 out of 30 on my Biology In The News project about global warming.” I asked what she had written about. She had selected an article written by Al Gore about the Florida gulf spill. She had to critique the article. She told me ” I gave him a lot of credit for the factual content, but he seemed very angry the whole time. I stated that if he had tried to be more educational and teach people, instead of being so hostile, he probably would have been better received by his readers. As he wrote it, I was more aware of his anger than his point.”
    From the mouths of babes. Okay, from the mouth of my 20 year old college student. She doesn’t hunt, and is quite the city dweller, majoring in music. So, she offers insight from the very age group we need to convince to be proactive in conservation.
    When I asked if she believed global warming was a true threat, she responded “You would have to be an idiot not to, but most people just don’t want the inconvenience of dealing with it.” Wow! Summed up our biggest obstacles in one quick conversation.
    She is a 20 year old multi-racial college student, who is being educated on biology at home, and by a a 30 year old bio professor….and she is smarter than most people I know, and more informed too. Maybe there is hope after all?

  6. Immer Treue Says:


    As we were taking about CWD and Lyme’s on the old HYCAIWLN,
    I thought I’d keep it going here.


    Plus, my brother and I were talking the other day about different herbal medicines, and who/how did they find out? Trial and error? Watching animals? Evolutionary history?

    Or who was the first one who started experimenting with mushrooms, and I don’t mean the ones of recent historical fame. Was it trial and error and a lot of people who’s last meal was a toad stool?

    • vickif Says:

      Historically, some of the remedies used were tribal. Based on regeons, people would use various plants, and even animal venoms, to treat ailments. I read that in the amazon, amny o fthe tribes shaman kept track of what animals would eat. Animals were of ten the litmus test from my understanding.
      Then that trickled down to humans. (Of course some failures were likely chalked up to evil spirits.) But, yep, trial and error. Sometimes happy accidents, like a plant touching inflamed skin.

      Then, it became a bit more dark. With European royalty having recruited “physicians” to try things on commoners in order to establish safety and effectiveness.

      Like all things scientific, most of it started with a theory.

      You can try this book, it has a lot about the historical uses and as they applied to slaves, they ended up used for practicality here..African American Slave Medicine: Herban]l and Non-Herbal Treatments by Katherine Medina.

      It is a good start and an interesting read.

    • vickif Says:

      *many of the tribes shaman*

      • Salle Says:

        I dabble in natural medicines and have a friend (mentor) who is quite proficient in their preparation and use. In fact, they wrote a master’s thesis on the traditional medicines used by hispanic communities. This person always tells me that when you find a toxic plant in the wild, the remedy is usually very close by as nature provides such balance. I have yet to find this theory to be untrue. Synthetic medicines might seem like they are wonderful but they also have a very negative impact on us from genetic changes – as in adaptation to them – and the environment as they require a lot of processing and produce a lot of toxic waste and other consequences including overpopulation of our species. And who benefits most from the synthetic forms of medicines…? Those who make them for monetary profit.

  7. Savebears Says:

    Gray wolf caught on camera above Missoula’s South Hills


    • Woody Says:

      Would it not be difficult to bury a 2000 pound animal in late January? Why would the meat be no good after just 12 hours? It appears to have been OK for canines.

  8. Salle Says:

    Ken, nice picture… A photographer friend and I have taken several pictures of that tree, it looks really spectacular when it has all the leaves in mid-summer. My friend calls it “The Cottonwood Strut” as the title for his photos. I call it the “Carmen Miranda Tree” because it reminds me of her with the fruit baskets on her head and those ruffled open skirts with one legs stepping out as she danced, maracas in hands, frozen in motion. It’s a well known tree for certain.

    • Nancy Says:

      Kind of reminded me of a Mulie buck with a non-typical rack, in deep snow……….

      • Salle Says:

        In summer the leaves create a more defined image. the gold of the leaves in the fall are pretty spectacular as well. I was looking for a picture on his flikr web site but will have to call him and ask where it’s located in his thousands of photos… I love that tree and feel some sort of sense of being out in wolf country when I see it. Of course. it’s not far from where the Lamar packs like to hang out.

  9. Peter Kiermeir Says:

    (Oregon) Ranchers seek right to kill wolves
    Maybe I´m wrong, but that guy from the Cattlemen´s Association sounds quite reasonable? Think some of these bills are the real problem, permitting too many shooting opportunities. E.g. that “self-defense” bill (3562 but also 3563). And the 500ft rule contained in 3563.

    • Woody Says:

      Thanks for the link. I wrote to my reps. The Bill to reduce the number of wolf pairs to four for the entire state is a joke.

      Am I wrong in that people can already protect themselves and livestock? The 4-j rule regarding the reintroduced wolves “allows landowners, their immediate family members, or their employees to kill a wolf that is biting, wounding, or killing or a wolf that is seen actively chasing, molesting, or harassing livestock, livestock herding or guarding animals, or domestic dogs.”

      If a wolf is within 500 feet of a house and doing no harm why should it be legal to shoot it?

  10. Mooseboy Says:

    Moose News from Jackson Hole. It looks like the moose in and around Jackson has a chance of coming back.

  11. Cody Coyote Says:

    We need to get Rockholm and his merry men to watch this amazing video of a pack of really vicious , really large wolves…

  12. Immer Treue Says:


    Did some digging and MN and WI wolves have been testing positive for Lyme antibodies, and a wolf was clinically inoculated with and did develop the disease.

    Seroprevalence of Lyme disease in gray wolves from Minnesota and Wisconsin


  13. vickif Says:

    Thanks. I wonder if the wolf showed the same type symptoms we would, or our pets might? I will have to read this.

    I spent most of my day reading about EBV in humans. I have all these Igg and Igm stuff rolling in my head.
    I think something more canine oriented would be more relaxing.

    • Immer Treue Says:


      Gosh but that reminds me of my immunology class. Such a long time ago.

      • vickif Says:

        Exactly. I was studying the corellation of the EBV and chronic fatigue syndrome, certain lymphomas, HNT cancers, glandular swelling and joint pains.
        Some of the symptoms are very similar to Lyme.
        But I was checking into alternative treatments, diets, etc. for people who’s viral load is constantly elevated, causing symptoms.
        Most people have or will have had, EBV. But as I study it, I get more engrossed. two of my kids have chronic, acute reactive positive tests. They both have very achey joints.
        I also noted that certain dietary supplements seem to help people to get over new on-set mono faster in the clinic. (Juice Plus) I think it has a lot to do with the anti-inflammatory benefits of the supplements.
        So, my family will begin an anti-inflammatory diet when I go shopping next week.
        I am one of “those” people. I hate to depend on a pill to do what I can change.
        Happily, the diet will be more eco-friendly, keeping the produce aspects local, and utilizing meat that is organic-bison specifically from a ranch a few miles away.
        Win-win I guess.
        What do you do?

  14. Mooseboy Says:

    Very troubling news about Western Wyoming’s moose. Parasitic worm may be found in 50% of population. The Parasite has been found in other states like Utah and Colorado(wolves by the way are not in those states).

    • Nancy Says:

      Steve – watched a Brangus cow “hop” over a six foot wood fence in Texas once. They are capable when seperated from the rest of their herd.

  15. Salle Says:

    Hundreds of Scientists Denounce Congress’ Attempt to Undermine Endangered Species Act


  16. william huard Says:

    Chilling article showing the connection between the “grassroots” tea party and the largest destroyer of wildlife habitat in Asia.

  17. Larry Zuckerman Says:

    looks like it is not Godzilla we need to fear, but rather four-legged, cud-chewing Weapons of Range Destruction….


    Seems like the radiation has entered into the marine food chain also – anchovies testing high, next Pacific salmon, sea lions, killer whales – bringing their gifts of radioisotopes to the Pacific Northwest – what’s next, Pacific salmon and steelhead, weapons of finned destruction?

  18. timz Says:

    One more reason for Judge Malloy to reject the “agreement”

  19. william huard Says:

    There is a rep from Montana named Alan Hale that is defending drunk drivers. Where do they get these visonaries?

    • Paul White Says:

      what BAC are they using for DUIs now? I’m death on drunk drivers–a friend was killed by one, and my mom was permanently injured by one in two different accidents. But I’ve seen this scary trend towards lower BACs; Some idiot in Austin proposed a .04% limit (which thankfully got nowhere). .08% is already fairly conservative as far as impairment goes.

      • Savebears Says:

        Montana has kind of two tiered system, you can be found impaired at .02% if the officer deems you to be impaired, the normal impairment level is .08% if you blow that or above you will be charged with DUI, if you refuse they can obtain a warrant for your blood, but normally it takes to long to get the warrant to really matter much.

        The legislature had proposed a bill this year to enact a 24 hour on call Judge to issue warrants over the phone, that has not been fully resolved yet, but many are getting away with DUI because they refuse to blow or take a blood test. They have also tried to pass a law that if you refuse you are automatically fined $500 and loose you license, but there is some constitutional issues with that they were working on..

        This guy is simply a nutcase and his rants will not gain much traction as the current trend is to get stricter on these DUI issues.

      • Paul White Says:

        .02? are you frigging kidding me?
        I don’t know exactly how it works in TX but we haven’t really had any problems like people getting away with it by refusing to take a test or anything.

  20. Larry Zuckerman Says:


    It’s April Fools Day and the joke is that …
    this is real and brought to you once again by the Big Sky Country’s State Legislature

    • william huard Says:

      Just look at the Republican Bill in the Congress today! Next week it will be the ” we are the buttplug party of no ideas, jobs, science, fairness for Americans Act” But we’ll take credit for the lower unemployment rate even if our bill creates 700,000 lost jobs!

  21. Cindy Says:

    Here is Friday treat for everyone! Check out this link below and enjoy!! A chick hatched yesterday, there are 4 in the nest. The voyeurism aspect is a wee weird, but I’m still enjoying it:)

  22. Cindy Says:

    PS – it took me a couple times clicking on the video get it started, now it’s running live, no problem

  23. Daniel Berg Says:

    More of a climate change type of article, but very interesting. This guy could be on the way to coming up with a solution to one of the big problems preventing more widespread use of battery powered vehicles:


    Advances in battery technology have incrementally lagged behind advances in almost all other types of technology that use battery power.

  24. jon Says:

    Some very good past interviews with Ralph. he talks about wolf reintroduction and the conflict in Montana between cattle and bison

    • Doryfun Says:

      Thanks for posting these interviews. Very good, and right on about cultural values. The only thing I would respectfully disagree on is Ralph’s claim about his take on outfitting and hunting. Claiming that outfitters use wolves is a good excuse for clients not being able to bag an elk, is weak. Or that there in little economic impact to outfitters is also weak.

      Hunting elk is never an easy proposition, even in the absence of wolves. It isn’t a simple matter of just going out in the meadow and shooting elk grazing uninhibited – made tame by lack of predators. Park elk maybe, but not ones used to having to avoid the two legged predator.

      I have lived in Idaho for over 30 years, and near as many in Oregon. Having hunted elk for nearly 40 years, (even outfitted breifly in OR for such, before wolves) and working professionally with elk ( for a few years, a long time ago) and habitat management, I am well aware one must change tactics for hunting when wolves move in. I also appreciate wolves and consider it worth the price of an elk to have them around.

      However, even changing tactics to hunt elk in wolf country does not always pay off for findng elk. In Idaho, many outfitters, and hunters, (myself included) who are intimately familiar with elk habitat and behavior, and have shifted our own tactics to pursue elk in changing conditions, can still find it much more difficult to find an elk during the hunting season.

      To think that hunters are just brutes out neanderthaling around without enough intellect to know what is going on in the woods is often a big mistake by non-hunters. Sometimes, there simply isn’t the same number of elk to pursue. Then like Ralph says, it is more a function of culture and human values. Some hunters (myself included) are willing to live with less elk to have more wolves others are not.

      But Idaho is being avoided by many non-resident hunters, these days, due to the perception of wolves taking all the elk, (real or not) and do have an economic impact to many outfitters in Idaho. Often it is a very big impact, and not just about an outfitters personality, as Ralph also mentions.

      I would be curious to know if Ralph has change his tune in this regard, as this interview was in 2003, and perhaps a bit outdated now, with respect to changes that have accrued since that time?

      But again, I like both interviews, thanks again for posting.

      • jon Says:

        No problem dory. I found them and thought many on here would like to see them They are real gems.

    • Phil Says:

      Great post! Excellent knowledgeable information Ralph. Love the cartoonist sounds on some of the photos, and what beautiful elk. The velvet on their antelors are amazing.

      I always get a kick out of the “These are canadian wolves…” just because physcially the original population reintroduced was physically brought in from Canada.

  25. cc Says:

    “Conservation’s Elephant in the Room: Media focus on charismatic species loses sight of the bigger picture”


    • Paul White Says:

      as a herp guy, christ yes! And my aunt is an entomologist, and I think she’d agree too.
      The real key is habitat preservation. Without that, it doesn’t much matter…have all the tigers you want in zoos but if there’s no wild for the wild ones, what the hell good did we do?

      Even in my area of interest…people bitch about the harm the pet trade does in herps…but you know what? One commerical collector, or a dozen, does a hell of a lot less harm than a new shopping mall. Or a section of rainforest being clear cut.

      The habitat where the first population of San Fransico Garter Snakes was found? It’s a frigging apartment complex now. Do think that population is bouncing back anytime soon?

  26. Salle Says:

    Where the Buffalo Roam
    America’s plains are emptying out. Should we give them back to the beasts?


  27. cc Says:

    This is about a species native to the eastern U.S. but worth noting here because the same tactics threaten all listed species. 3 years ago a flying squirrel was declared recovered by the USFWS and removed from ESA protection. Turns out they did so by ignoring their own recovery criteria.

    “Court reverses removal of flying squirrel from endangered list”:

    “Court Gives Endangered Status Back to West Virginia Northern Flying Squirrel, Rules That Recovery Plans Must Be Followed”:

  28. Nancy Says:

    Sorry if this has already been posted – trying to figure out where this town is:

    • Savebears Says:


      I am pretty sure that is up in Canada, in Alberta

      • Savebears Says:

        I believe that is Banff

      • MAD Says:

        Nope, it’s Estes Park, Colorado

      • Savebears Says:


        I thought it looked a lot like Banff, I know they have very similar situations that happen every year up there as well, and it looked like a video I saw on Nat Geo last year highlighting the problems they have in Banff..

      • timz Says:

        Mad is correct, check out the HWY 36 sign which runs through Estes Park.

      • Savebears Says:


        I am now sure you guys are right, I didn’t catch the Hwy sign the first time I watched it..

      • Woody Says:

        The lisences look like the Colorado sky line. Could it be Estes Colorado? They have lots of different plates but most have a mountain skyline, and many have three digits (space) three letters

      • timz Says:

        Never forget that place. RMNP is where I saw my first wild elk about 25 years ago. I still have a hat from the “Famous Nagels Wheel Bar” in downtown Estes Park.

      • Woody Says:

        There is also an ” Egg and I” cafe in Estes and US 38 runs E-W through town.

      • Woody Says:

        One of those elk had an ear tag. What is its function?

      • timz Says:

        I thought it was an ear ring and he’s “stylin” for the ladies

      • WM Says:

        Indeed this is Estes Park, at the East entrance to Rocky Mountain NP. And the Colorado Wolf management group determined, after consultation with the folks in Canada at Banff Provincial Park, that it woud not be a good idea to reintroduce wolves to RMNP. The problem, it seems, is elk would have a greater tendency after a while to stay in Town even more of the year, to avoid wolves.

        The concern then, was that wolves would come into town looking for elk, and also getting in trouble with pets.

        The RMNP Supervisor wrote a general letter to the public that said the park is too small, and they would not be rintroduced, but would be ready to manage and accomdate them when they show up. I don’t think the idea has quite caught on with the locals, however.

      • WM Says:

        I used to play alot of softball in Estes Park. The elevation is something like 7,800 feet, and a well hit ball nearly defies the law of gravity. That is why they used to call one of their gatherings the “Lighter than Air Tournament.” Don’t know if they still hold it.

  29. Nancy Says:

    SB – I found the video really sad. Reminded me of the ignorant stopping in the middle of the road (creating a traffic jam) and piling out of their cars in Yellowstone for a shot of bison trying to cross the roads, between cars.

    • Woody Says:

      Years ago we were visiting Glacier Park early in the season and bears had just emerged from their dens. There was a big traffic jam as people looked at a grizzley and two cubs. We felt vulnerable in a canvas topped willies jeep as the female came “woofing” toward the road.

      • Savebears Says:

        I had a similar incident the year my mom passed away, my dad had come to visit for a couple of weeks to help clear his mind, and we headed up to the park, and right at the avalanche pull out, there were three cubs at play in the trees on the side of the road and there were several people out of their cars taking pictures, what they all seem to forget was….the question……

        Where is mom?

    • timz Says:

      In Denali a couple summers ago we came upon a very large bull moose standing in the middle of the road and wasn’t going anywhere. I stopped a ways back and got out and sat on the hood waiting for it to leave when a large motor home pulled up behind me and a young girl, about 15 jumped out and went running by toward the moose. I hollered for her to stay away from it but she said she wanted a close-up photo. She must of ran to within 15 feet of it. Lucky for her it wasn’t in a bad mood.

  30. Nancy Says:

    SB – both my folks are gone now but that trip thru Yellowstone a few years back with them……. Precious!!

    • Savebears Says:


      Since my mom passed, I have taken my dad to Yellowstone 3 times, I had promised my mother a trip, and unfortunately never got to fulfill that promise, but she rides with me every single time I go!

      I remember the only time she got to visit Montana, she kept us up to the wee hours of the morning relating what she has seen on her drive over from WA…My dad said he thought she was going to die on the spot when she saw her first bison on the National bison range…

      As you said Precious…

      • Alan Says:

        This doesn’t have anything to do with the video, but the posts about taking senior parents to Yellowstone reminded me of the time we took my (then) 93 year old mother in law camping in the park. She insisted that we have a campfire. Personally I’m not usually into campfires, except an occasional small cookfire while backpacking, because I don’t believe in burning up every downed stick and twig in the forest just to amuse myself, so I decided to do it the quick, easy (and frankly, lazy) way and buy one of those Pine Mountain logs. I had just gotten “mom” situated on a lawn chair next to the fire ring and lit the log when it started to drizzle. Within minutes it was raining harder and my wife and I were bundling up “mom” and getting her into the camper. I then poured a bucket of water on the log to make sure it was out, and got into the camper myself. To my astonishment, a few minutes later, I noticed flickering outside. The log had revived itself! I went out in the now pouring rain and dumped more water on the log and turned it over and over in the mud. Within minutes the darn thing was burning again! To make a long story short, I ended up sitting in the camper looking out the window, because I didn’t want to go to sleep and leave the thing unattended, while it proved that it did indeed burn for three hours as advertised! Even in a downpour!
        My mother in law and I laughed about that until the day she passed at 97!

    • Ken Cole Says:

      “Whether it’s Democratic Senators not standing up to Senator Tester’s attack on the Endangered Species Act in DC, Bipartisan Committee Chairs in Salem giving a venue for fear-mongering, or a billboard company giving in to a hateful landowner in Eastern Oregon – it’s time to stop rewarding this bad behavior.”

      That’s rich coming from a group who decided to completely capitulate and settle on a lawsuit that we won hands down. Who’s rewarding bad behavior?

  31. Daniel Berg Says:

    Krugman piece on climate change:


    It seems like the Koch’s are knee deep in almost every attempt to degrade environmental regulation these days. BTW, thanks Pointswest for getting me back into reading Krugman’s column.

  32. Larry Zuckerman Says:


    Looks like this rare stonefly from Glacier National Park is going to have to do it on its own for survival; at least until the FWS get around to protecting it.

  33. jon Says:

    For those that live in Idaho, are you familiar with this Lenore Barrett?


    “Rep. Lenore Barrett won’t let her grandchildren play outside her Challis home, where wolves roam the mountains.

    She described wolves in Idaho as bloodthirsty monsters, though the predators haven’t attacked a human since their reintroduction here in 1995.

    Barrett says, ‘”They’re killers, they do it for sport, and then they leave their victim still alive for a lingering death.”

    • Larry Zuckerman Says:

      Hard to ignore her – she’s pretty outrageous – and she is my state representative.

      I seem to remember something about her husband living in a remote mining cabin – cannot imagine why

      The bill is pretty outrageous and gives Governor Otter direction to use his emergency police powers to deal with this “natural disaster emergency” – even using the sheriffs of Idaho’s counties and his Office of Species Conservation, instead of just the Idaho Department of Fish and Game.

      here’s the bill:

      Click to access H0343.pdf

    • Ralph Maughan Says:


      I knew Barrett well. About every 5 years she tried to get me fired at the university. She said she would never vote for ISU as long as I was there, but the university president brushed her off after a cursory investigation. He said she never had voted for a university budget anyway.

      She pretends to be the voice of central Idaho, but she isn’t even from Idaho. She married a rich guy and moved to the area. Her campaign funds do not come from local donations, but a few big interests. Stupid, ugly and vicious . . . that’s Lenore Barrett.

      • Daniel Berg Says:

        So she claimed to vote against the university every time on account of you?

        She sounds like a real loathesome human being. I’ve noticed more than a couple of Madame Defarge type characters among the anti-wolf/anti environment crowd.

      • Ralph Maughan Says:

        Daniel Berg,

        No I meant the President said her threat was idle because she always voted against the higher education budget as a matter of course. Long before the tea party was around to vote against education funding, there was Lenore Barrett.

      • Salle Says:

        And furthermore, when she’s at a hearing or some function where her arch-enemies ~ wolf/wildlife advocates for example ~ have a chance to speak, she will stand at some strategic location on the way to the podium where you go to speak, stand right next to the pathway in the room and lean out to glare at you and give the impression she’s going to slap you in the face while you try to get past her on the way to say your piece. She tries to intimidate the “others’ and gives her favorites a nice motherly smile when they go to speak. She and Ron Gillette were really good pals last time I checked.

        There is an equally unpleasant individual in the Montana legislature who hates wildlife equally as much and her last name is Barrett… wonder if they’re related. This MT Barrett is the one who proposed that elk and bison be dealt with in a foul manner, by the livestock industry… and she hates wolves too.

  34. WM Says:

    So, will the Federal government shut down or not? How much freakin’ money has been spent on contingency planning (for no otherwise productive purpose) to mitigate the effects of shutting down? Will some of the 1.9 million federal workers (yes there really are that many employees feeding off the trough) be temporarily furloughed, or maybe paid later for work not actually done?

    Ain’t the federal government a wonderful thing with this assortment of elected idiots from around the country, who can’t find their asses with either hand, attempting to solve problems for the massses, and making decisions in the 26 square miles of DC, surrounded by reality?

    By the way, the animals at the National Zoo in DC will be fed, even though it will be closed. Gotta wonder, however, if wild horses and burros in pens across the West, will be fed by federal contractors who won’t get paid while the government is shut down, and there won’t be a BLM employee there to monitor whether the job gets done.

    • WM Says:

      Sorry, too harsh on the good folks trying to work the problem from both sides of the aisle, and not enough emphasis on the folks causing the problem: “Ain’t the federal government a wonderful thing with this assortment of elected officials, INCLUDING NEWLY ELECTED TEA PARTY FLANK OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY…”

    • william huard Says:

      These are the real facts behind this issue. Parsons and his Safari Club types are nothing more than ego driven thrill killers. This is all about the enjoyment they feel to kill a powerful animal because Parsons feels a sense of inferiority. Whether it’s because he is a short little pissant I’m not sure, but they always masquarade their killing as conservation. What a douche- and people can get back at him by not using his services

  35. Ralph Maughan Says:

    Thanks Jeff E,

    The story of the climate change skeptic scientist who changed his mind when he examined the data is getting a lot of play. I’ll bet the Republicans who set up this stacked hearing are pretty chagrined.

  36. Daniel Berg Says:


    Anybody know how much cattle the Koch brothers have in Montana?

  37. Daniel Berg Says:

    “Skinned animal carcasses in Auburn may not be what they seem”


    This wouldn’t make news in most parts, but is a little odd to see occuring in one of the urban parts of the south end.

  38. jon Says:

    Some pics of the rally.


    I found this on another site, but couldn’t find the link to where this was posted.

    “Boyle says Idahoans feel physically and psychologically threatened by the wolves — a message echoed, in less-than-measured tones, in the bill itself. “The uncontrolled proliferation of imported wolves on private land has produced a clear and present danger to humans, their pets and livestock, and has altered and hindered historical uses of private and public land, dramatically inhibiting previously safe activities such as walking, picnicking, biking, berry picking, hunting and fishing.”

    Not exactly. Wolf attacks are extremely rare — and certainly in relation to the region’s population of fearmongering political panderers.
    Indeed, this end-of-session mischief has 42 Republican co-sponsors, including a disappointingly long list of locals: Sens. Russell Fulcher, Shirley McKague and Melinda Smyser, and Reps. Gayle Batt, Clifford Bayer, Carlos Bilbao; Brent Crane, Marv Hagedorn, Mike Moyle, Joe Palmer, Robert Schaefer, Steven Thayn and John Vander Woude. Authored by House Speaker Lawerence Denney, the bill has the blessing of Moyle and the rest of House GOP leadership — which explains its hasty approval in Ways and Means, a committee that meets at leadership’s behest.

    This pack of lawmakers is in a big hurry to allow Gov. Butch Otter to sic local law enforcement officers on wolves. But we suspect deputies and police officers can find more pressing matters of public safety — especially since the wolf population may already be in decline.

    According to U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates, Idaho was home to an estimated 705 wolves in 2010, down from 870 a year earlier. The feds say the lower numbers could have been caused, in part, by reduced monitoring efforts in Central Idaho’s remote mountains, and the loss of some radio-collared wolves.

    Yes, the science is imprecise. But it isn’t on the side of the legislators who cry wolf.

    “Our View” is the editorial position of the Idaho Statesman. It is an unsigned opinion expressing the consensus of the Statesman’s editorial board.”

  39. PointsWest Says:

    Yellowstone Science

    A great article about historical numbers of wolves and bison in the GYE.


    • JEFF E Says:

      Often one will read about some ridiculous low estimate of what the # of wolves were in the GYA. With very little research about the number of prey animals that were in existence, i.e., the bottler brothers, the idea that there were not a proportional number of predators is moronic on the face of it.
      The fact is, is predators at that time were not considered any thing of particular value, certainly not worth the time and effort to count . If someone cared at all it was just enough to kill them.

    • Phil Says:

      It would seem realistic at what Leonard (pg.25) stated about wolf population sizes in the 19th century. It is a far different number then that of Edward Curnow’s population of “several hundred thousand” just in Montana alone (pg. 19). Although I would like to see numbers of wolves that high again as Leonard mentioned, natural resources of ecosystems in the modern day and age could not sustain such a large population.

  40. Doryfun Says:

    Thanks PointsWest,

    That indeed is a great source for future reference.

  41. Salle Says:

    Honeybees ‘entomb’ hives to protect against pesticides, say scientists

    By sealing up cells full of contaminated pollen, bees appear to be attempting to protect the rest of the hive


    • Phil Says:

      A couple of summers ago I was taking a BIO class where we had to research the populations of native and invasive bees in Michigan (mainly populations in and around the school’s nature center), and cell counting was one of the data collections we had to gather. Out of the 37 hives on the campuses center, 8 of those hives had a atleast one cell with a protected seal (not all of the 8 were pollen). We were partnered up and each of us collected data on 4 hives with some having to do 5. My partner and I found that only one out of the four hives we were in charge of had a protected seal on a few cells, and it consisted of pollen. This is great evidence to further understand how intelligent species are.

  42. Salle Says:

    Europe’s last bison pose a question: what is truly natural?

    The bison in Poland’s Bialowieza forest dodged extinction due to a ‘trick of history’. But what would restoring a natural herd really mean?


  43. Salle Says:

    Koch’s web of influence
    Koch spends tens of millions trying to shape federal policies that affect their global business empire


    A good explanatory breakdown of what it means to be “filthy rich”.

  44. Phil Says:

    I have always been told that if you do not like the way government is running the country, then get out there and vote. As it seems like the Republican party is going against many traditional forms of freedom to the citizens in this country, we continue to vote them into these high ranking positions. Why?


  45. jon Says:

    Otter gives early praise to wolf emergency bill


  46. Immer Treue Says:


    As soon as they get cornered,they bring out the lie card. Cool how Stone shut up Rockholm. Then Fanning jumps in and confirms Mark Twain’s quote, “It’s better to stay silent and look a fool, rather than speak and remove all doubt.”

    • jon Says:

      I’m really glad she spoke and defended herself. Rock likes to take things out of context and twist people’s words around. This guy really believes he is going to put those who had a hand in wolf reintroduction behind bars.

  47. jon Says:

    Budget bill pending before Congress would remove wolves from endangered list


    • william huard Says:

      It has to be a combination of ranchers and outfitters that are killing these wolves. They are Fu&*^ing eco-terrorist douchebags

  48. jon Says:

    New Carnivorous Dinosaur Species Similar to T-Rex Discovered in China


  49. william huard Says:

    Interesting article which shows the “Killing is Conservation” model advocated by Parsons and the Safari Clump types completely bogus

    • jon Says:

      Yeah, use any bullshit reason to justify killing wildlife. I wonder what his excuse would be when someone questioned him about the leopard he shot. He shot it for sport and I wonder what reason he would use to justify his killing of a leopard for sport. Smart people can see right through people like Parsons. For people like him, it has nothing to do with conservation. He just hides behind the conversation excuse. The fact is he loves killing animals for sport to show off his trophy to his fellow hunting buddies.

      • wolf moderate Says:

        I would never kill anything in Africa or a brown bear in Alaska for that matter, but I have to disagree w/ you guys on the “killing is conservation” model. If there is no “value” to these animals, then the locals will just kill them for there furs and other body parts. Think elephants. Once there is a monetary value put on animals, the governments will spend money to protect the species. You don’t understand that? Is it sad that this is the only way to protect certain species? Yes! Is it a valuable way to ensure the survival of certain species that would otherwise be wiped out by poachers? Yes!

      • wolf moderate Says:

        My uncle lives in Alaska and is uber rich. He built a business from the ground and certainly earned his millions. He grew up dirt poor.

        Anywho, he went to Africa with his wife a couple of years back to hunt for 14 days. He spend over $40,000 on the trip. They killed 13 animals (if I remember correctly) and didn’t take any of the meat home. It was all donated to local tribes. So, he stimulated the local economies AND donated hundreds of pounds of meat to the poor. Pretty sweet setup for the local governments over there. If hunting were not allowed, he would have never went there and spent money or donated meat.

      • mikarooni Says:

        That just makes me sick …not necessarily the hunting part, but the pomposity, arrogance, and paternalism.

      • jon Says:

        wolf mod, you can value animals without resorting to killing them.

  50. william huard Says:

    Wolf Moderate-
    Did you even read the article? The article raises several good points some from “Save the elephants” who I think know more about elephant conservation than either you or me

    • wolf moderate Says:

      Yes I read it. I posted info regarding elephants a while back. Why fence them when rich white men will keep the herds in check, donate the meat, and contribute thousands of dollars into the local economies.

      Who cares is they listen to ACDC while butchering lol. Geez…

      • william huard Says:

        Obviously you don’t read to well. They said right in the article that the government is corrupt and the locals don’t see a pennny. Maybe we can draw you some pictures what color crayons do you like?

      • Elk275 Says:


        Have you ever been there? I have. So you believe everything you read.

      • william huard Says:

        Elk 275-
        Hamilton from “save the elephants” is one of the most credible experts on elephants, he worked with Leakey in the 80s to bring back elephant populations from poaching. I’ll take his word over ‘Trophy hunters” like you and Parsons anyday

      • wolf moderate Says:

        Whether the governments are corrupt or not, the locals do make money off the rich white man. They eat, buy souvenirs, stay in local lodging, DONATE the meat, etc…

      • jon Says:

        Why couldn’t Parsons or any other rich white trophy hunter just donate the money they would spend on a trophy hunt to the poor locals for food aid?

      • wolf moderate Says:

        Where do they get the meat from? Last I checked meat doesn’t grow on trees lol. What, you went them to ship cows to them now too? 😉

      • jon Says:

        Parsons could have given the money he spends on a trophy hunt to the poor local people. I’m sure they would put that money to good use. I’m sure there are other things they need besides food.

      • william huard Says:

        The article describes the affects of climate change which doesn’t exist!
        “Zimbabwe is the only country where some of the park guardians are politically connected and don’t care about the animals. They’re the ones that benefit economically from the killing, even though they are the ones who are suppose to protect them”
        “However, the entire village could be fed for a year for what Parsons spends on his annual two week shooting spree. It’s a perk for people who enjoy killing elephants to justify themselves”
        Face it wolf Mod- Parsons and the SCI types get off on killing animals, it gives them a sense of power, a sense of domination, and it drives his egomania- all under the guise of “Conservation”

      • wolf moderate Says:


        I totally agree w/ you. Trophy hunting is something that I don’t do and don’t really understand why someone would want to travel half way across the world to shoot a bunch of exotic animals. I also understand that it’s mostly an ego thing w/ these guys and again do not understand it myself.

        That being said, if these guys were not able to kill these animals they would not be contributing money to these areas. It’s not like if they don’t hunt, then they will just donate the money that they would have spent on the hunt to better the villagers or some crap. They are getting something out of it and so are the locals. It’s a win-win situation. On top of that the wildlife now have a monetary value, so the poaching by the locals will be curtailed greatly by the government.

        Seems pretty obvious to me, but then again I’m not anti-hunting. I guess if you are it’s just not possible for you to see the obvious benefits, even if a few rich white guys get there rocks off killing a few animals….

      • william huard Says:

        This has nothing to do with me being anti hunting. The trophy hunting argument about helping the locals is bogus. I have facts to back it up too. I found a study done in 2010 by IFAW who is very credible, on Polar Bears in Canada. I can’t pull it up on my browser for some reason. Put in trophy hunting polar bear- the fifth or six entry down with the heading “Study shows very little economic benefit from trophy hunting”.

  51. william huard Says:

    Very rarely do local governments ever see a penny- but hey it sounds good as a talking point right

  52. Ron Kearns Says:

    ‘Gov’t killing key female lions on AZ desert refuge’


    The first-ever radio/satellite-collared female mountain lion captured within Kofa NWR was shot dead last weekend by the AGFD/USFWS and another female is scheduled for death for preying upon desert bighorn sheep. Collared mountain lions in this section of Arizona are easily tracked down using VHF radio and satellite telemetry and then shot dead once they have killed 2 or more bighorn.

    • william huard Says:

      Kill the predators so the hunters can kill the bighorn! Sounds about right

      • wolf moderate Says:

        Dude, you are seriously misinformed. Do you know how much hunters contribute to bighorn habitat? The benefits go far beyond just the sheep of course. Last I checked mountain lions are no where near endangered or threatened. If you hate hunting that is fine, but w/o hunting conservation would be hurt badly. Anywho, this is stupid to be arguing w/ you about this lol. Seeya.

        Here’s a few organizations.


      • jon Says:

        wolf mod, it is a crime against nature to kill an animal simply because it killed another animal for survival purposes. These mountain lions shouldn’t have been killed. Wildlife should not be killed just so hunters can have more bighorn sheep to kill for themselves.

    • Virginia Says:

      Wow – they killed mountain lions for “preying” on their natural prey. What a screwed up policy!

  53. George Says:

    I strongly recommend you look at this site. It talks about corruption in the USDA wildlife services. Please help us get this out to the press,and the rest of the world .

  54. Salle Says:

    Pending U.S. budget bill includes language to lift wolf protections in Montana, Idaho


  55. jon Says:

    Good 24 minute video about wolves in Idaho everyone should watch.

    • jon Says:

      BTW, Ron Gillette in his this video and you should see one of the comments he makes, “if the devil had an animal, it would be the canadian gray wolf”.

    • Phil Says:

      What a great video. Mr. Morgan is one of the few ranchers I sympathize for. Instead of campaigning against the wolves, he use his knowledge to protect his livestock and pets. As for Ron Gillette, well, the word “stupidity” is to intelligent for him. “What judge would convict me of shooting a wolf in protecting my family…?” I think the hostility in his tone of voice proves he is not realistic in his statements as are the science to prove him wrong. When I was in Idaho a year ago last December, the group I was with ran eye to eye in a few instances with wolves, but we were never shown any signs of a threat from the wolves. I know that this is not always the case, but in a norm setting wolves would rather use the flight method then stand and fight when it comes to humans.

      What absolutely awesome sceneries from Idaho. Recently (two days ago) I sent in my application to work with the Nez Perce Tribe as a Wildlife Biologist I. As I love history (in which it seems like they have a trmendous amount of), and wildlife, I am eager to hear from the tribe. I have visited Arizona on two different times, and I have always heard of the beautiful mountains the state has, but in Gilbert, Arizona, all they have is dirt mountains a few hundred miles away. That was clearly not what I was hoping for. We should have ventured further out of the city to places like Flagstaff.

  56. Larry Zuckerman Says:


    More on Congressional riders and Continuing Resolution budget Bill and how Tester and Simpson left WY fending for itself concerning wolves

  57. vickif Says:

    I saw a coyote today, that was HUGEE. I couldn’t get my camera out in time to get any good shots. If I had, I would have examined the true identity of the animal. I swear he was over twice the size of a normal coyotse (I see them everyday). His legs were a lot more stout than the normal coyote. And he was darn well nourished for this time of year. Either a mild winter made eating easy, or he is eating trash or calves. It was the largest ‘yote I have seen in Colorado, in 30 years.

  58. Peter Kiermeir Says:

    Florida Panther: Wildlife Groups Lose Suit http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/04/11/35688.htm

  59. Daniel Berg Says:

    “First U.S. Tar Sands Mine Stirs Controversy In Utah”


    Real uplifting news for a Tuesday morning…….

  60. Daniel Berg Says:

    “Highway to Hell: Why Shale Gas Fracking Is Worse Than Coal for Climate ”


    Results of a Cornell study done on fracking.

  61. jon Says:

    Minnesota wolf-depredation program on verge of extinction


  62. Doryfun Says:

    Just in from the Lewiston Tribune….
    Breaking News
    Megaload knocks out power at Pierce, Weippe
    April 12, 2011, 11:36 am
    About 1,300 homes and businesses in the Pierce and Weippe areas were without power for almost five hours this morning after an Imperial Oil test module hit a line supporting a transmission wire.

    The outage started at about 1:45 a.m. following the incident on U.S. Highway 12…

    The megaload hit a supporting line triggering a pole holding it up to break and then the supporting line hit a transmission line that shorted….

    Traffic was delayed one hour instead of the 15 minutes that ITD is allowing, said Adam Rush, a spokesman for the transportation department….. Subscribers, read more.

  63. Doryfun Says:

    Senator Bernie Sanders’ Guide to Corporate Freeloaders, posted at MoveOn.org.

    Guess Which 10 Companies Aren’t Paying Their Share
    Posted on March 2, 2011 by Alicia
    Come April 15, everybody ponies up their fair share, right? Not so much. Thanks to corporate tax cuts and loopholes, these big companies will be rollin’ in the green instead of paying Uncle Sam. Read Sen. Bernie Sanders’ (I-VT) corporate freeloaders list now.
    Go to this site for the list. Special Attention Wolf Moderate – whom I recall mentioning earlier something about how corporations shouldn’t be taxed so much. (too bad the trickle down effect only works for the rich).

  64. wolfsong Says:

    If there is anyone here that lives in Colorado, the Legislature has decided to try and reinstate the Spring Bear Hunting Season. The bears are NOT the problem, the stupid people who refuse to follow common sense rules ARE the problem.

    Link to article:


    Link to petition


    • jon Says:

      Thanks, I find it appalling that these bears are losing their lives because of some irresponsible and stupid human beings. Killing a bear is a short term solution and it does not solve the problem. There are ways to live with bears without resorting to killing them. The problem is you will always have irresponsible morons with no common sense and that gets a bear killed.

      • wolfsong Says:


        I live with bears 365 days a year and THEY are not the problem. We have alot of “summer” people who refuse to contain their trash, they leave the cars unlocked with food inside, etc. etc. THEY are the problem, not the bears. The bill itself is below, it is RIDICULOUS and claims that it is necessary for the health and safety of the people. Sounds like the BS coming out of Idaho!

        Click to access 783C09074F91CF828725780100604031

  65. wolf moderate Says:

    Anderson Cooper had Ron Paul on regarding grey wolves being attached as a rider! Looks like you guys have some press time…National press time! 😉

  66. Salle Says:

    Soil Erosion Far Worse Than Reported In American Farmlands, According To New EWG Report (VIDEO)


    • WM Says:

      Sadly the Clean Water Act, and the implementation of “best management practices” was to have dealt with this issue beginning nearly forty years ago. Natural Resource Conservation Districts (formerly called Soil Conservation Districts working with the SCS in USDA and local district boards) were also to have directed prioirites, individual federal subsidized farm project funding, and management planning to deal with this as well.

      Yet another federal environmental law failure of huge magnitude. Hundreds of millions of dollars were spent trying to implement these practices to reduce the amount of soil and pollutants from reaching streams. Very disappointing to note so much time has passed and so little has been accomplished.

  67. Salle Says:

    Has BP really cleaned up the Gulf oil spill?

    Officially, marine life is returning to normal in the Gulf of Mexico, but dead animals are still washing up on beaches – and one scientist believes the damage runs much deeper


  68. cc Says:

    New Study Points to Lead Ammunition as Primary Factor Limiting Condor Recovery:


    Critical Habitat for Snowy Plover May More Than Double Under New Proposal:


  69. Doryfun Says:

    Take a break from the serious and enjoy this you tube video of elk fighting in the Madison River:
    Elk fighting in The Madison River . Yellowstone Park .
    (sorry, I don’t know how to post the actual you tube thing on this post, as others do)

    • wolf moderate Says:

      Awesome video. Nothing better than hearing two bulls going at it during the rut. Wolves howling are a close second though!


    • WM Says:

      Looks like someone has a bad knee, but a force to be reckoned with nonetheless.

  70. Peter Kiermeir Says:

    Tigers return to Kazakhstan:
    Obviously the Amur Tiger is considered genetically similar enough to be re-introduced instead of the extinct Caspian Tiger. (and no crying there like the familiar “….but these CANADIAN wolves…..)

    • Larry Zuckerman Says:

      Yes Governor Clement Otter held a press conference today concerning ID’s illustrious Legislative Session. At the very end, someone finally mustered enough courage to ask a real question or two about two bills – the Wolf Disaster Emergency and Abortion – that were sitting on his desk.

      Apparently, without any announcements – he signed the Abortion restriction bill. No press, No protests, No controversy or circus.

      Then he added his comments about the wolf bill and how his signature depends on what Congress does with the Wolf Rider.

  71. Larry Zuckerman Says:

    Breaking News Alert
    The New York Times
    Thu, April 14, 2011 — 3:14 PM ET

    House Passes Compromise Budget Bill

    The House passed legislation on Thursday to finance the
    federal government for the rest of the fiscal year, the final
    House vote in a budget showdown that had threatened to close
    down the federal government until an eleventh-hour compromise
    was struck late last week.

    The vote was 260 to 167, with 59 members of the House
    Republican majority and more than half the chamber’s
    Democratic minority voting against the legislation.

    Speaker John A. Boehner of Ohio had predicted that the
    measure would pass with significant support from both
    parties, despite opposition from conservative members of his
    own caucus, who said the spending cuts were insufficient, and
    from liberal Democrats who called them excessive.

    Read More:

  72. timz Says:

    “We are having the worst attack on the Endangered Species Act in 30 years while we have a Democratic Senate and a Democratic White House,” said Kieran Suckling with the Center for Biological Diversity. “They are trying to shut citizens and scientists out of the endangered species process.”

    Those damn Republicans!


    • wolf moderate Says:

      “”The president could have used some political capital to influence this and he didn’t,” said Patrick Parenteau, a professor of environmental law from the Vermont Law School. “The message to the environmental community is, don’t count on the administration to be there” for the protection of endangered species.”

      The President burned up all of his political capital on Obama Care. Thank goodness he did. The Democrats have no backbone and the President has no credentials. Things are only going to get worse. 2012 will bring in a Republican House, Senate, and Whitehouse.

      With the the looming financial debacle merely months away, the Republicans will only reduce expenditures to wildlife conservation and Green Energy. I just hope they don’t start selling public land to the highest bidder! Unfortunately we need to pay bills and no revenue=Land sale.

      This sucks being a realist. I’m getting depressed over the state of the union.

      • william huard Says:

        “2012 will bring in a Republican House, Senate, and Whitehouse.” Say what? Palin, Bachmann, Huckabee, Daniels- there’s a real quality Repub field there Wolf Moderate! Maybe they can exhume Captain Kangaroo and put him in the race.
        As much as I dislike Obama right now there is no one that will beat him in 2012. The unemployment rate will be below 8% and he will be reelected. People are not stupid- and they will not vote for hostage takers whose only claim is to protect the unborn and think tax cuts and tricle down economics will save us. We already tried that from 2001-2009. Go on thinkprogress.org and read the FACTS about our deficit and how Bush contributed to it.

  73. Larry Zuckerman Says:

    US Senate just passed the Continuing Resolution and the Wolf Delisting Rider survives to arrive on Obama’s desk for signature

    The Vote — 81 for – 19 against


  74. Cindy Says:

    In my humble opinion, based on various things I witnessed and heard today here at home as well as coming out of Washington, if you’re a pro wolf advocate, you better hold on tight, because this beloved animal is in for the fight of it’s life. I can faintly make out the word exterminate in the winds of change, blowin’ around my home here in the northwest corner of Wyoming. My stomach aches.

  75. Cody Coyote Says:

    (posted here, too)

    Please join one and all at the ordaination of Montana Senators Tester and Baucus, allegedly Democrats , as they are anointed “Anti-Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing ” at a brief ceremony in Wolf Point, Montana at the popular Stockman’s Club. No cover, and the door prize is a tanned wolf pelt from last year’s attrition hunt.
    Seriously , the Tester delisting wolf rider attached to the desperation federal budget bill, now sent on to Obama for his signature after an 81-19 vote in the Senate Thursday afternoon following House approval in the morning , was a keen example of How NOT To Legislate or make policy.

    The wolf rider, being w-a-a-a-a-a-y far out of context with a budget appropriation , was a cheat. Or blackmail. Your choice. But either way it is not how to make legislation , or sausage, for that matter.

    I’m disgusted.

    Now we turn our attention to Wyoming where Wolf policy is getting interesting with some potential for peril , but on a different tack altogether. ( administrative)

    Stay tuned.

    • Salle Says:

      I’m so disgusted, I think it’s finally time to defect. I’ve threatened to do it before but this is the last straw. It’s just a matter of time when there will only be wildlife in game farms, museums and zoos, probably by the end of the decade… Kiss it good-bye while you can still see what you will be missing.

  76. Larry Zuckerman Says:

    Just when you thought the woods were safe….


    FWS proposes delisting the Western Great Lakes DPS of gray wolves.

    Now that the floodgates are opened, anyone want to bet which species, subspecies, DPS, or state with part of a DPS will be delisted next? My bucks are on the bull trout of Idaho, but if I was a betting person, might be the Preble’s jumping mouse on the Rocky Mountain Front Range from Cheyenne down through Denver – lots of valuable real estate there.

    Or how about whooping cranes along the Platte or black-footed ferrets in the way of new energy corridors for Alberta tarsands oil to Houston or powerlines crossing through many states.

    thanks to Jon Tester – for finding a new application for the Domino Theory… and for creating a new professional career with demands in the future – delisting biologist with Federal government.

  77. Larry Zuckerman Says:

    or most likely.. since the West’s environment doesn’t matter to Washington DC – the Greater Yellowstone DPS grizzly bear and then perhaps the entire northern rockies grizzly bears, modeled after the Northern Rockies wolves with hunting seasons and depredation kills underwritten by the taxpayers.

  78. Larry Zuckerman Says:

    New cost-cutting measures by the EPA – but at an Idaho Superfund Site?


  79. william huard Says:

    Maine’s Governor with an environmental mandate with his 38% of the vote . The man is such an idiot. This crop of republicans and their SH^&%bagger agenda doing their part to get back at the Guvmint
    How these governors like Rick Scott got elected is beyond me

  80. jon Says:

    Some great news.


    Some other good news, I don’t know if this has been confirmed yet, but some hunters are saying that bills in Wa that would allow hunters to use dogs to kill cougars have reportedly got shut down.

    • william huard Says:

      So we’re calling that hunting now?

    • bret Says:

      a cougar was destroyed in Wenatchee last week under a woman’s porch and yesterday a cougar was killed in Richland in a house under construction.

  81. wolf moderate Says:

    Hasn’t it been proven that prohibition doesn’t work? These right wingers are really crossing the line. banning alcohol didn’t work, making drugs Illegal certainly doesn’t work, and banning online poker doesn’t work. the government is missing out on a lucrative revenue stream by making the poker sites operate illegally.


    • wolf moderate Says:


      It appears from the article that you posted that Idaho will reduce the current population of 800 wolves to 518 over 5 years. That doesn’t sound extreme to me.

      Do you have evidence that this is not there actual plan? Please post any information to the contrary. Would be very much interested.


  82. Cody Coyote Says:

    I just read a very interesting article in a quarterly publication called ” Yellowstone Science ” published by the National Park service. It was a dissertation on estimating the number of wolves that existed in Yellowstone and the surrounding region before extirpation began after the Civil War. Numbers vary , but they were in the hundreds of thousands. Not only that , DNA analysis of old skulls and pelts etc show the wolves in Yellowstone were a mix of various subspecies, some from as far away as the Canandian Maritimes, as in Labrador and New Brunswick , with smatterings of Mexican wolves , too. But also C.l. irremotus and nubilius and baileyii etc.

    Mitochrondial DNA computations show the Yellowstone wolf strains probably numbered no less than 380,000 animals before the market hunting and extirpation occured about the time Yellowstone Park was created. The article also had some insight into the atrocious practice of elk and bison slaughter inside Yellowstone , some legal, most not. With photos , eve.

    Here’s a link to the current issue. The wolf population story is near the end. Great resource , and well attributed.


  83. ProWolf in WY Says:

    I don’t know if anyone posted this, but here is an interesting one from the Casper Star Tribune.


    • Salle Says:

      Looks like all the F&G agencies have decided that if livestock are using the NFs then wildlife is SOL.

      • Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Says:

        Those decisions are made by society – through our governmental institutions. Wildlife and other natural resource policies, laws and regulations are vetted through our electoral process (at the federal and state level) and determine how Fish and Game Commission/Boards and their agencies develop wildlife management plans and programs. In this case, WGAF is simply recognizing that society has made a determination that use of private and some public lands to produce a livestock resource is valid and sometimes incompatible with a sustained presence of grizzlies.

      • Salle Says:

        Those decisions are made by society – through our governmental institutions. Wildlife and other natural resource policies, laws and regulations are vetted through our electoral process (at the federal and state level) and determine how Fish and Game Commission/Boards and their agencies develop wildlife management plans and programs.

        Really? I think not. F&G agencies are ditrected by the governor(s) and whatever they decide is right, not a mandate by society. they may elect the gov. but they don’t have much say, that is the general electorate which is quite different from the special interest groups like the ag industry or the forest harvesting industry or the rich boyz that pay for the elections.

        You have, in the past, even admitted that what F&G does is pretty much dictated by the gov. so how does that differ from what you are trying to say here? It differs entirely since the public comment events are a sham and the only comments that F&G, in Idaho for certain, have a severely tin ear to the actual public and can only hear the screeching noise that the hunting and ag crowd has to say (at both the state and federal levels, think about those cheap as hell AUMs for instance) since it is in line with what the gov’s investors want and therefore, that’s what the F&G does, commission to “hear” the public’s concerns or not. Or maybe it’s just that the only public that exists in the group-think of the gov’s office would be the voice belonging to his/her investors. Gotta protect those subsidies for the sake of the megalivestock industry et al. (I refer to these financiers as investors because that’s the most realistic way to describe them… they buy the office which the public is fooled into thinking that it actually represents them ~ which is total fiction at this point unless you are a member of that special interest investment group.)

        Nice try but total bunk. Care to take another stab at it?

      • Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Says:

        Salle –
        There are two points in my post: 1) government agencies (state fish and game agencies in this example) implement government policies that are established by the society that government serves; 2) those policies always fail to satisfy segments of the society. Your response affirms both of those points.

        “F&G agencies are ditrected by the governor(s) and whatever they decide is right, not a mandate by society. they may elect the gov. but they don’t have much say, that is the general electorate which is quite different from the special interest groups like the ag industry or the forest harvesting industry or the rich boyz that pay for the elections.”

        Of course the electorate has much to say about the policies a Governor/Legislature/appointed Boards and Commisions formulate. The election of those government leaders is fundamental, direct involvement. Those leaders are chosen by society. That policies do not agree with portions of the electorate (your disapproval of WYGF grizzly management recommendations could be an example if you were a Wyoming resident) is not evidence that the citizens of Wyoming have not participated in the process of developing that policy. They certainly have, by election of their Governor and Legislature who have varying responsibilities to appoint Game and Fish Commission members and otherwise contribute to the wildlife management policies of the state. The same is true of Idaho, Montana and every other state in our Union. Your disapproval of those state policies and decisions are just that – your disapproval as a state resident or non-resident, with different levels of stakeholder interest in that states wildlife management programs. If those policies and/or decisions are truly misrepresenting the needs/wishes/desires of the state electorate – the opportunity and process to change those policies and decisions is clear and open to the voting public in that state.

      • JB Says:


        Your assertion that public lands/wildlife management decisions are made by “society” because the electoral process allows for all citizens to voice an opinion assumes that (a) all issues are given equal weight at the ballot box, and (b) there is some variability in the stand that those running for office take on these issues.

        Very few people decide their vote based upon environmental issues. Politicians know this, and so they consistently ignore public opinion and vote in favor of extractive industries (who make it worth their while in campaign contributions). [Note: After Citizens United, I expect this phenomenon to get worse.]

        It may be factually accurate to say that “everyone gets a vote” but it is clearly untrue that every vote is given the same weight in the eyes of decision makers. For instance, in a recent study we found that the majority of Utah residents wanted to “see wolves in Utah”. However, in 2010 Utah’s legislature passed a law that explicitly attempts to prevent wolf recovery. While Utah residents could vote out these congressional members, only a small percentage of the population puts environmental issues before other types of issues. Thus, vested interests keep their power despite, not because of public opinion.

      • Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Says:

        JB –
        If we agree that wildlife management follows policy set by federal and state government, then I’m not sure that we disagree significantly on this issue. I would only say again that through the electoral process, society is responsible for wildlife management policy and programs, despite seemingly inconsistent or contradictory outcomes of public policy – given public polling and surveys that appear counter-intuitive. Clearly – agencies do not “decide” what resource or resource use is/are most important. Those policy decisions are made by the public through their government – governors, legislators, congress, appointed decision making boards and commissions. Agencies and science play a crucial role in the formation of policy but the responsibility to prioritize and choose the uses/benefits of the public’s natural resources belongs to elected government leadership. In the example of grizzly bears in western states – society, through an imperfect electoral system of government, will decide where and how many grizzly bears best serve the interests of society. The public interest (in it’s many facets) is the ultimate criteria our institutions have to base these decisions on.

      • JB Says:


        I don’t believe we disagree over an issue of fact; but I think this is one of those cases where the facts can be misleading–especially for someone unfamiliar with the finer points of wildlife management in the US.

        In effect, I think you and Salle are both right.

  84. Salle Says:

    Emails expose BP’s attempts to control research into impact of Gulf oil spill

    Documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show BP officials discussing how to influence the work of scientists


  85. Salle Says:

    Energy dollars fueled campaigns of Democrats who defected on EPA vote


    Gee, is anyone wondering how the anti-wolf-rider was handled?

    • wolf moderate Says:

      “anti-wolf rider”! That’s catchy 😉

      • Salle Says:

        It was specifically aimed at wolves, no other species. Catchy is a little quaint don’t you think? It was a buy-out like all the other riders attached to a Bill that should have had nothing else attached to it. That and the funding of the bought and paid for congress is criminal but there’s nobody to arrest them… yet. (By the way, arrest means “to stop”.)

  86. Salle Says:

    Congress Slips Anti-Wolf Rule into Budget Bill…First-Ever Intervention with Endangered Species


    Interesting articles linked at the end of this article. I find it ironic that DoW and Center for Biodiversity have so much to say after their latest shenannigans with that fool’s bargain they were promoting last week.

  87. Salle Says:

    This Tax Day, ‘Farms’ Owned by the Rich Provide Massive Tax Shelter


    As if we don’t already know this…

  88. Salle Says:

    Slide Show: The 10 Worst Members of Congress You’ve Never Heard Of


    Funny, or not, Rheberg is on the list. And that Lipinsky guy from IL looks like an orc from the Lord of the Rings movies! Yikes, no wonder this country is in such a mess.

    • Phil Says:

      Dobson’s story is a great one. For ranchers, there are many reasons as to why they will not (or cannot) coexist with conservation groups and wolves, (or any other predators), but if they just try and do what they can while recieving help from others, then I believe the situation will get better. I believe there are too many ranches as it is, but that is their desire in life. Although I have no research in this, it is also true that there are a good amount of ranchers who have children that do not have the interest of ranching and move to more urban areas. As much scrutiny DOF recieves from others (mainly from huntes and ranchers), to give money to lost livestock due to predation just to save wildlife is a great and selfless act.

  89. jon Says:

    This woman is a hypocrite and a disgrace to those that truly care and respect animals.


    • Phil Says:

      This ABSOLUTELY pisses me off!!! I cannot believe this video and the actions of this woman. I couldn’t even watch the entire video and had to stop after the fourth hit on the dog. I hope she recieves the highest degree of punishment possible. She probably only stated she is an animal lover to reduce the punishment. How sick!

  90. Salle Says:

    U.S. Fish & Wildlife Initiates ‘Flex’ Plan for Wolves in Wyoming
    Gov. Matt Mead touts agreement for dual status, with some wolves protected and others that can be shot on sight. Sportsmen back the plan, conservationists deride it and wonder if any plan between Wyoming and the feds will hold.


  91. Cody Coyote Says:

    A good sunnyside up story in the Helena Independent Record today on Ed Bangs retiring in June after 23 years of running the Northern Rockies wolf recovery program.


    • Phil Says:

      I have never met Mr. Bangs, but he seems like a genuine person. A hunter who helped the reintroduction of wolves who also educated the public on the species and tried to deflect much of the hostility towards wolves is someone that was crucial to the whole issue itself. Working with Carter, DOF, etc, now I can see why the reintroduction was such a successful one. His great words of “The wolves are here and they are not going anywhere…” are a great sign that the states would probably not be able to eliminate the population of wolves, but who knows.

      • jon Says:

        Not a big fan of him, but you got to give him credit and respect as he was basically the main person that made wolf reintroduction possible and it will go down as one of the greatest wildlife success stories ever and now you have rural westerners trying to ruin that. Carter Niemeyer made a great point before, why did we bring wolves back if we’re just gonna kill them.

      • Salle Says:

        Ed Bangs is amazing in many ways, I have always had great respect for him. I met him back in the late 1990s and found him to be not only approachable but the most powerfully stoic listener I have ever seen in action. When sitting through numerous wolf-related public hearings, where he sat right next to the speakers, I watched anti-wolf people nearly whack him upside the head – physically – while wildly gesturing in their zeal to express their hatred for wolves and anyone who helped bring them back, Ed sat there straight-faced and listened to every word, never flinching when wild gestures brought the hands close to his head.

        He is a champion in many ways and I think his popularity with the wolf supporters started to wane when the W admin began to silence him, or at least thwart any favorable to wolves media coverage. It’s the fate of federal workers who don’t exactly see the administrative efforts to drive circumstance through manipulation as appropriate. (Whatever Ed believes about that is not known to anyone but him… still I will remember him for what I saw when he was unfettered in his official duties.) I worry about who would take his place in the position of authority he holds or whether the DOI will simply eliminate that position like was at the state levels like with Carter’s old position, Carolyn Sime’s position, Mr. Fazio in AZ, and the other worthy wolf management professionals that have recently been relieved of duty for knowing about wolves and how to manage them. Heaven forbid they should actually help resolve the problems related to reintroduction and recovery.

        It’s the latest governing paradigm, keep the little people uninformed so they don’t know what’s being taken from them.

      • WM Says:


        Before you start summarizing about Ed Bangs, commenting outside your pay grade once a again, and characterizing him mainly as a “hunter” you might want to actually check the facts. He is, first and foremost, a wolf biologist, with alot of experience. He is the lead author of the 1994 EIS on NRM wolf reintroduction, author of the infamous memo in the EIS that focuses on the 100/10 per state number that gets batted around here (which was a synthesis of information and biologists opinions at the time), and a contributing author to many ongoing wolf biology studies in YNP and elsewhere.

        A link to his Declaration from the first MT delisting suit:

        Click to access search

      • JEFF E Says:

        I did get a smile out of him once, maybe even a little belly laugh. At the first wolf delisting public hearings I said that letting Idaho manage wolves would be like parking your brand new car in the drive way with the keys in the ignition as you left town for a trip on an airplane with the parting admonishment to your 16 yr old son to ‘stay out of trouble”

      • Immer Treue Says:

        A bit of a repeat from posting below. Met him at 2000 Wolf Symposium. Ed Bangs was probably the best man for the job in terms of wolf reintroduction. Big likable guy with a great sense of humor who shed vitriol like a duck sheds water. A lesser man would have fallen apart.

        I wonder if he will have a book in the making?

      • jon Says:

        I wouldn’t doubt it immer. Carter has one, so why wouldn’t Ed? What I find hilarious is these anti-wolf extremists calling ed a beaver biologist and trying to discredit him. These people just can’t stand that wolves were reintroduced into their states. Whether you like ed or not, the man has to be commended as he was the one who made wolf reintroduction happen.

      • Phil Says:

        wm: I have concluded that you will ALWAYS comment worthless comments on others you dislike. I strongly dislike your character and you have proven to be a bias person. I did not characterize Mr. Bangs as a hunter, he referred himself as being one, so I don’t know where that ridiculous comment of yours came from? I know he is a wolf biologist, so where is the problem?

        “…pay grade once a again, and characterizing him mainly as a “hunter”, I am sure you did not mean to ad the (a) in there, right? You right on that comment tried to assume something that was not stated just to try to embarass someone you do not like. A month or so ago you referred me to being an “idiot”, but you clearly have shown to be the true idiot.

      • WM Says:


        One can only go by the words written in a post. You are often careless with your words, and how you express them, and frequently opine outside what seems to be your knowledge and experience, as if it is fact. I sometimes read your posts, scratch my head and ask what was young and inexperienced, but eager, Phil trying to say?

        Some of us know Ed Bangs and his extensive background with wolves as a biologist and the FWS administrator at the very epicenter of the NRM reintroduction. I felt compelled, once again, to augment your knowledge with his own words (and I didn’t even see the word hunter in his resume), in his Declaration. The link was posted so people who read this forum can learn more about his depth and experience, and it sure as hell is not hunting as it regards the topics for which he is known.

        Phil, were you actually aware Bangs was the reputed source of the 100/10 miniumum wolf number per state in the NRM, aggregated to a 300/30, with a buffer, that gets quoted in the court opinions all the time (1994 EIS, Appendix 9, pdf: p. 386/414)?

        Phil, it is not that I dislike you, I just think you are a sloppy thinker as reflected by your writings. Alot of young biologists can’t write for crap. So, prove me wrong. I actually think you getting better, for the most part. Keep your reasoning tight and your writing clear, and I won’t ride you so hard (insert smiley face with wink here).

      • Phil Says:

        wm: How am I careless with my words regarding Mr. Bang? Is he not a hunter? Did I use his hunting hobby in any form of negativity to his work with wolves, the people in the area or the success of the project? No. I was praising him for being what he was and doing what he did. He is not a wolf biologist, as he has worked with many other species, so that clearly points out your knowledge that is outside of the political world Mr. I have a Master’s in whatever it is. “He helped reintroduce caribou in Alaska,…” It does not matter if you saw the word hunter on his resume, all you have to do is read the article that I responded to and you will know it is true. “He came to head the gray wolf reintroduction in a roundabout way. Bangs grew up in Ventura, Calif., and worked through high school and college as a chemical plant laborer, a cattle ranch/feedlot hand and an oil field roughneck. He also loved to hunt and fish.”

        Sloppy thinker wm? I think you are believing what you want to in order to, again; try to embarass whom you dislike. I do not have respect for someone like yourself who believes his knowledge exceeds anyone and everyone. As I have proven, your writing credentials are not at the top level as you believe they are as you continue to target others who make mistakes. As this is not a published book, article, etc, I do not have to spell check, grammar check, etc any of my posts. You can believe what you want to, but it does not matter. Your old ways of biology are past their time. You have no clue how I write a paper and such, so for you to judge on what is posted on here (a forum) reiterates what you complain others of. As I mentioned prior, if you would like to challenge me in ANYHTHING, please bring it. I don’t really care if Ken moderates me or not.

      • Immer Treue Says:


        WM paid you a compliment and you did not even see it. This is a great forum to practice one’s writing, and the thought processes that go into that writing. We all make mistakes with grammar and spelling; and we all get tied into a knot by something every once in a while. I’ve said to you once before that your passion is wonderful, keep it up. Put on the metaphorical sun glasses every once in a while, and let’s hope the future is bright.

    • Phil Says:

      Immer: I suggest you read the first comment he posted to me. This is not a great forum on practicing your writing. I recieved a scholarship for an essay writing contest. I recieved my job as a teacher based on a paper I worked on. Everyone on here makes mistakes writing, but wm continues to point my mistakes out. You can believe what you want Immer, but I do not see what you are talking about. As you mentioned, everyone makes mistakes writing, but no everyone gets attacked for it by wm.

      • wolf moderate Says:

        I can’t believe that nobody (other that someone w/ first name that starts w/ S) has critiqued my often misuse of there and their and then and than. They are hard for me to get right often. You are too sensitive Phil! Think of it as constructive criticism! lol.

      • Immer Treue Says:


        Relax. This is supposed to be fun, and enlightening. I’m not a “grammarian” by any stretch of the imagination, but if I had the red ink out, and I am a teacher, your return post to me would have looked bloody.

        You have great heart, and I am on your side.

      • Phil Says:

        wolf moderate: It is not being to sensitive when you are pointed on it just about every time from the one individual who does not point it out towards others, especially when it is clear that individual has an almost completely different belief system then the person he/she is criticizing. I have also misused “their” for “there” and vice versa, “then” and “than”, so I am not stating to be superior in the proper writing format, but to criticize another’s education standards (especially one who is a teacher working on a wildlife biology degree) constantly is absolutely nothing more then purpose attacks. Basically, becoming defensible is a way to defend self, as is just simple ignoring. I find it easier to defend on stupidity of others in trying to show their supposed brilliant mind and prove them wrong then just to ignore it. It is just my method of doing things. Ralph, SB, Immer, Elk, yourself, and others are obviously intelligent and shows in their comments on public and private issues, politics, etc, but they have multiple of mistakes on their comments. Where is the criticism of their writings? I will bet that if I were a hunter who believed there should be a hunting season on wolves would draw so much crap from wm. As I mentioned, I will challenge him to any topic he brings about. That is the fourth time I have invited him on a challenge to no answer from him.

      • Phil Says:

        Immer: You mean the “I RECIEVED my job as a teacher based on a paper I worked on.”? Absolutely. I can recheck my comments and fix the mistakes, but I chose not to. As this is a forum and not a job application, I would tend to be more careless on certain posts, but I do not care. That red inked pen would be handy towards others, but, as wm did, you point it at me. You can defend an idiot like wm, but I see the attacks garnered on myself from him and no one else recieves those same attacks.

      • Elk275 Says:


        When I was young and in English class, I was always looking out the window either wanting to be outside or in high school skiing. I never remembered all the rules of effect/affect, good/well, an/a and too/to, etc. After a lengthy and expensive education I never did learn to spell. I just try my best and write everything on AOL using the spell checker. You can not teach an old chicken how to be a young chick again– it to late — just have fun and do your best.

      • Immer Treue Says:


        WM can take care of himself. I just tried to point out he was complimenting you. Odd, but since I studied German, I have had trouble with the ei, ie order, as in received. The English language is fraught with avenues for mistake. One of the things that makes English so hard to master. I just try and take my time, and put some thought into what I write.

        Try reading a bit of Jim Harrison. I think my favorite book of Harrison’s is “Sundog”. Tom McGuane is also pretty darn good. Guys who can create pictures with their words. Point I’m trying to make is if you are going to write something, and we all make mistakes, make your writing something that someone else would appreciate.

      • Phil Says:

        Elk: As I stated, I would not have recieved a scholarship that helped me attend school my first two years, and I probably would not have earned my teaching job without if it were not for my writing credentials. If someone continuously attacked your intelligence, how would you react?

      • Phil Says:

        Immer: I did not see any complimenting from wm, but if you saw it, then I cannot change your mind. What I saw was an attack on my intelligence each and every time he points out my grammar, misspellings, etc. If it were not an issue, and because everyone else on here does it, then why even point it out? It is pointless, but because the belief I have is different then another’s, the criticism always comes about by that individual.

      • Phil Says:

        Immer: “wm can take care of himself.” Then quit defending him and let him speak.

      • wolf moderate Says:

        The only rule I ever remember is “I before E except after C”.

      • WM Says:

        I am with Immer on this.

        Phil, lighten up. Believe it or not, I am trying to teach you to be a better thinker, writer and conversationalist. Putting sideboards on an issue is something of a challenge for you, as well as taking constructive criticism. You will find that learning how to do these things may help your career.

        And I did give you a compliment.

        Imagine yourself in the shoes of Ed Bangs or one of the state wolf coordinators. Learning to take a few hits from those whose views differ from yours is an art. Toughen up a bit, quit whining and focus on the big stuff.

        By the way, I don’t think I have ever commented on your spelling. Most everybody misses a word here and there. Tough to follow thoughts as reflected in goofy sentences, questionable factual content/opinions are fair game, as they should be for everyone.

      • Phil Says:

        wm: In your first criticism targeted to me a few months back, you mentioned that peer scientists will debunk your research and you have to defend yourself. Well, I am defending myself and am being criticized for it. So, if I publish my research findings and get attacked on it, I shouldn’t defend it? Dr. Gamboa at my university stated what you did in that peer scientists will more then likely attack your research, but if you are justifiable on your research, then you must defend every attribute of your research. As I stated, I have no respect for you. You are not attacking my science, you are attacking my intelligence which really makes you look ridiculous considering I am a teacher working on a higher level of degree. No, I am not the best pubisher, thinker, english scholar, journalist, etc, but I would not be able to recieve this high level of education (two classes left in achieving a second degree) and my job position without having intelligence. To me it does not matter what Immer says. I clearly saw attacks from you mainly due to the different belief I have than that of yours. Where are your attacks on others writings?

  92. Immer Treue Says:

    Not to stir up any dust, but whatever happened with the two guys Appleby and Pittman, I believe, who supposedly shot a wolf when they were surprised by a pack of wolves when they tried to pack out the elk that one of them shot the night before?

    • Nancy Says:

      Haven’t heard another word about that incident Immer. Kind of like Afganistan, when was the last time anyone here saw any coverage on the national news regarding the war there?

      • wolf moderate Says:

        Or Guantanamo. The hipsters were ready to hang Bush, but interestingly, now that BO is in office you never hear about it.

      • Immer Treue Says:

        Wolf Mod,
        Jeezo peezo! Got anything to say about the question?

    • wolf moderate Says:

      I was adding to Nancy’s concern regarding the media’s coverage (or lack thereof) of BO’s policies.

      Now back to the previously scheduled thread.

  93. Daniel Berg Says:

    “Future of proposed solar-power plant looks dim”


    Looks like the “Teanaway Solar Reserve” outside of Cle Elum, WA might not happen. The backers are demanding more incentives on top of the incredible incentives already being offered. In my opinion, this project is wasteful and of dubious long-term benefit. Kittitas County has already been loaded with wind farms as it is.

    • bret Says:

      yes those windmills are fugly in front of the Stuarts

      • Daniel Berg Says:

        Yeah, they go together about as well as Ron Gillet at a “Lords of Nature” screening.

      • WM Says:

        ..and those windmills are fugly in front of the Stuarts….EVEN AT NIGHT WHEN THAT BAND OF RED LIGHTS MAKES IT LOOK LIKE SOME KIND OF HOVERING SPACECRAFT…. 24/7.

        The funny thing about these projects, including this Teanaway Solar Reserve is that you don’t even know who the investors are. This is not proposed as some benevolent green technology effort. It is about making money, with federal and/or state subsidies. They will go to the well as many times as they can to suck up tax dollars, even if the concept doesn’t pencil out. How many times have we seen this happen. WOOPS (a nuc proposal that wasted billions in the 80’s), Seattle Monorail (2002), FERC (hydro licensing in the 70’s that screwed up more fish), Wind (that is killing birds and creating a blighted landscape for selling excess power to markets outside WA), and now Solar panels in the Cascades. I almost forgot the bio fuel fiasco (some of the same assholes that brought you the Seatle monorail, including Joel Horn and his cronies) – anybody read anything positive about that recently? These bastards go from one start up to the next, knocking off $150K + salaries, duping investors and folks that dole out our tax dollars. I call it Green FRAUD.

      • Daniel Berg Says:


        Some of these investor groups are becoming so greedy that they are basically trying to garauntee a profit at taxpayer expense. I agree with you that most of the electricity generated would be shipped out of state.

        Here’s an older article on the reserve:

        When you compare the massive amounts of taxpayer subsidies provided to these projects vs. the megawatts generated, it’s a pretty raw deal for you know who.

        I was talking about this with a buddy of mine whose dad does some lobbying work for green energy here in WA and in DC. He’s trying to get more of the manufacturing of wind turbines parts done locally instead of almost all of it coming from overseas (another unfortunate aspect of the green energy movement IMO). I could tell he disagreed with my position on the enormous subsidies vs the megawatt production. I think that a lot of people love the idea of green energy because it makes them feel good. That feel good aspect of green energy prevents tem from thinking about it in any kind of objective fashion. I’ll admit that the thought of clean energy makes me feel good as well, but I’m also a realist.

        As a segway to wind energy specifically, Washington State as of 2009 has a wind power capactiy of 1,849 megawatts. Those who travel around eastern Washington know how many turbines have gone up already. Can you imagine how many will have to go up to supply 15% or more of the state’s total power consumption? The American Wind Energy Association says Washington has a capacity for 18,000 megawatts generated by wind power! You can kiss the landscape as we know it goodbye east of the Cascades if we get anywhere near that.

    • jon Says:

      Daniel, I heard that those 2 bills that would allow hunters in WA to use hounds on cougars got shut down. Have you heard anything about the bills?

  94. Immer Treue Says:

    Met him at 2000 Wolf Symposium. Ed Bangs was probably the best man for the job in terms of wolf reintroduction. Big likable guy with a great sense of humor who shed vitriol like a duck sheds water. A lesser man would have fallen apart.

    • jon Says:

      I’m sure both sides dislike Ed Bangs. You got the ranchers/hunters who didn’t want wolves reintroduced, some of them anyways. At the end of the day, whether we like him or dislike him for whatever the reason, he made wolf reintroduction possible and for that, we should all thank him a great deal.

  95. Salle Says:

    Giant Wolf Epidemic: Huge Packs Of Giant Canadian Gray Wolves Are Terrifying Idaho Residents


    Geezus, this is what advocates are up against… idiots and zealots with photoshop and an Internet connection.

    • Immer Treue Says:


      They’ll probably start recirculating that Russian commercial with the wolves chasing the officer into a car.

      • jon Says:

        This is getting ridiculous. No matter how many times you debunk this misinformation. the wolf haters will continue and continue to say it like it’s the truth.

      • jon Says:

        And didn’t that turn out to be some hoax? That’s what I heard.

      • Immer Treue Says:

        It was a vodka commercial and the wolves, at least in part were added digitally.

    • Phil Says:

      It is really funny that the article shows this photo of the “large” gray wolf and saying the weight is 180 lbs when the man probably weighs that much but looks half the size of the wolf. What imaginations these people have.

      • Salle Says:

        Bet most are fans of glenbeck who is, or his persona on the airwaves, absolutely bonkers, and if they watch hat or listen to him their brains must go into some kind of hyperfantsy mode after a few minutes… perhaps this is the result of such exposure. And if no GB, then someone equally as absurd.

    • Cody Coyote Says:

      A horrible gaff of misposting…it was supposed to show up on “The Onion” on or about April 1.

    • Daniel Berg Says:

      I don’t even know if Gary Coleman could make a wolf look that big.

      • jon Says:

        lol That guy doesn’t look to be that tall. You’d think an average sized man would have trouble holding up a supposed 230 pound monster canadian wolf.

      • Immer Treue Says:

        Look at the most recent comments.

    • Phil Says:

      According to Simpson, who cares about wildlife that are not important to some people in the state, who cares what judges say, and who cares about protecting the environment as long as people throw money in his face for disturbance on ecosystems. It’s great to have people in high power have a one track mind.

      • wolf moderate Says:

        Phil, Senator Simpson has tried for over a decade to add more wilderness to Central Idaho. It’s best not to judge people based on sound bytes (It’s easy to do, believe me I know 🙂 )


      • Phil Says:

        wolf moderate: Wilderness is one thing, but a safe wilderness and wildlife is another. What was his purpose for adding more wilderness? For wildlife? As I do not know Simpson personally, I read from interviews and make conclusions. Didn’t Mr. Salazar also try to add more wilderness?

      • Elk275 Says:

        ++but a safe wilderness and wildlife++

        What is a safe wilderness? Never heard of such a thing, lived here all my life.

      • Phil Says:

        wolf moderate: I meant a healthy wilderness and wildlife. I know there is a big different between safe and healthy, but a healthy wilderness is one I was referring to. Wanting a lesser level of EPA in many cases is not beneficial for wilderness, and in turn affects the health of species on many different levels.

      • Phil Says:

        Sorry Elk, but responded my last comment to you and not wolf moderate.

      • wolf moderate Says:

        My reply was going to be the same as Elk’s.

      • Phil Says:

        wolf moderate: Then my response goes towards your comment as well. Simpson helped cut the budget from the EPA, right? I know the EPA does not always act upon the best tactics for the bettering of all living organisms of ecosystems, but they are the ones that work to ensure the healthiest environments that we have, and for Simpson to help cut the EPA’s budget, then the department does not have all he necessay tools in ensuring the greatest quality of environments, which would have a negative effect on organisms. I could be wrong, but the pieces fit together in that he is not looking out for the health of environments. Wanting to advocate for more wilderness is one thing, but maintaining a healthy wilderness and species is another.

      • wolf moderate Says:


        I was an FOSCR at superfund sites working directly under the EPA OSC (On Scene Coordinator). The way in which they appropriate funds is down right scary. They have no grasp of the big picture. Check out the Libby, MT debacle.


        Don’t get me started on how the USCG conducts oil spill responses lol. There are many reasons why we’re headed towards a third world status. Did you see the news today?

        The ball is rolling… http://www.voanews.com/english/news/economy-and-business/Rating-Agency-Downgrades-US-Credit-Outlook-120139834.html

        Sorry, went on tangent, but the way things are going, wildlife is going to be the least of our concerns.

        Taking tin foil hat off now 🙂

    • Immer Treue Says:

      I think the “other sides” take on the Tester rider is disappointment. Needless to say they want hunting, trapping, and poisoning. This desire would also extend to the Northern Great Lakes States. One gets the feeling stage two of the battle is about to begin.

      • jon Says:

        immer, the guy who wrote that is a man by the name of Mike Dubrasich.

        This man is a hardcore extremist that has made threats against environmental organizations in the past.


      • WM Says:


        I think you are correct. GL Lakes wolves are on the delisting docket now, as well, and it will likely go through this time.

        The latest from WI on its increasing wolf population:


        Notwithstanding their management plan provisions, it would not be unreasonable that they would seek to control numbers with a hunt within 2-3 years, even if it required a plan amendment. The state paid out $200,000 in wolf damage claims in 2010, double the sum paid in 2009, and the population is growing, as the article states.

      • jon Says:

        immer or timz, if the gray wolf is delisted, will Canis lycaon be as well?

      • Immer Treue Says:


        NGL states wolf population is robust, and damage claims have grown. I’ve mentioned on other sites as well as here, that wolves are also having a positive impact on these states, but it is difficult for the anti’s to see this. Overall, in Wisconsin, auto deer collision salvages are down almost 20,000 in the past ten years. With growth of wolves in rural areas, during this time, there has been a county by county decline in accidents with deer.

        I’m not saying wolves are responsible for all of this decline, but I would hazard a guess that 25-50% of this reduction can be credited to wolf predation in these rural counties. With average auto insurance deductibles at somewhere between 200-500 bucks, and an average cost to State Farm Ins of slightly> $ 3,000, this adds up to a substantial financial savings, as well as the occasional life or injury.

        One must also look at agricultural damage due to deer. This costs Wisconsin over $1,000,000 per year. Again, this number has been coming down in recent years, along with the advent of increasing wolf populations.

        Not all folks look at this side of the picture. The Wisconsin deer herd is artificially large because farms provide a feed lot situation for them, and they have had no major predator until the last ten years. I am also pretty sure the incidence of Lyme disease has been on the increase in the NGL states, along with the increase in the deer herds.

        Once more, this is not to slight the damage to live stock and dogs done by wolves. A wolf hunting season is most likely on the horizon, but as I have said before, in N. Minn, I have more fear of the hunter than I do the wolf. If folks can mistake a dog for a deer, what will happen when a wolf season opens?

      • Immer Treue Says:


        Canis lupus is Canis lupus. A wolf is a wolf with minor regional variations. One of the points the anti’s try and bring up is that the wolf reintroduced to Yellowstone is big on moose, which makes it easy to kill elk. Well, the wolves ( the supposed C. lupus lyacon) in the upper midwest and Canada do quite well on moose. Jon, it’s only a matter of time.

      • jon Says:

        immer, you’re right, canis lupus is canis lupus, but MAD posted not too long ago that they recently found out that C. lupus lyacon is not a gray wolf. I believe that is what he said. So, since they are not gray wolves, would they be listed along with canis lupus or be protected?

      • Immer Treue Says:

        The wolf in that area is a grey wolf.

      • Immer Treue Says:

        Mech approaches this with humor

        Click to access canissoupus.pdf

      • jon Says:

        check this out immer and give me your thoughts on it.


        They (the bbb blog) are claiming the usfws invented a new wolf species.

        “After reviewing the latest available scientific and taxonomic information, the Service now recognizes the presence of two species of wolves in the Western Great Lakes: the gray wolf (Canis lupus), the wolf species currently listed under the ESA, and the eastern wolf (Canis lycaon), with a historical range that includes portions of eastern Canada and the northeastern United States. Recent wolf genetic studies indicate that what was formerly thought to be a subspecies of gray wolf (Canis lupus lycaon) is actually a distinct species (Canis lycaon). To establish the status of this newly recognized species, the Service is initiating a review of Canis lycaon throughout its range in the United States and Canada.”

      • Immer Treue Says:


        Allow them to rattle their sabers all the want. Wolves kill what they want to hunt. Anything that gives them reason to complain, makes them happy.

  96. Phil Says:

    In Michigan the wolf population is not as high as it is in Wisconsin (about 500-550), and we have more than 1.5 million deer. The auto collisions on deer in 2009 were more then 61,000, which was a 30,000 increase then what it was back in 1992. I love observing deer, but to many can, as Immer menioned, cause a lot of damage to ecosystems and, in this case, auto collisions.

    • Immer Treue Says:


      It would be interesting to find out the actual monetary benefit vs loss of wolves in the northern great lake states. BS talks and money walks, but one must also take into account the wolf’s negative stereotyping. I’ve got a neighbor who is, for the most part, in the camp of the wolves are killing all the deer. I guess he wished the wolves got the one that bashed in the front end of his car.

      • Phil Says:

        Immer: In Michigan, I rely on Mr. Peterson’s thoughts on that topic. From what I have seen, the benefits in most part are towards the ecosystems, but the negativities are towards some people. Yes, they can do damage to the pockets of some people, but they can also save some money for others as is an example in your comment of there being less car collisions with deer in your state. I remember Mr. Creel stating that “The negativities of wolves are just the way nature works. It has been that way, and it will continue to be this way. Every species has its pros and cons, it is the mindset of the people that carries these overboard.”

        For the wolves in Michigan, and in general in my opinion, I tend to beleve (from what I have observed in my volunteering) the positives outweigh the negatives by a large margin. This is my belief for all species, especially keystone ones (carnivores and herbivores). Off course unless they are invasive, then the game completely changes.

      • Immer Treue Says:

        Which gets us back into the who’s more important, wolves or people? Guess it all depends on which people you are. Folks are slow to change habits. Bears tear down bird feeders. and folks just put them in another spot out of reach of bears. Wolves take someone’s dog and it’s another story. Nothing malicious on the part of the wolf. It’s just a wolf being a wolf.

        When I’m at my place in MN, my dog knows not to wander. He has also been face to face with a wolf~ 50 feet or so apart. He understands what stay and no means. I don’t know if I’ll be around long enough to see people truly accept wolves. Hopefully you will.

      • Phil Says:

        “Bears take down a bird feeders” I would put that in the category of a bear being a bear. My professors work on bee population projects each year. The biggest problem they have in their projects are the raccoons that take down the boxes the professors put up for the bees to build their hives in. One of the students last summer asked what actions they take to prevent this problem? Their first response was “Raccoons will be raccoons.”

        It has taken more then 15 years of a sustainable wolf population in the NRM for certain people to accept wolves, and it does not look like it will occur anytime soon (I could be wrong thoug), so I will not comment on that and, just like yourself, I hope so.

      • jon Says:

        Yeah, wolves eat pets. They should not be condemned to death for it. Most of these problems can be easily preventable, but some people are just irresponsible and lazy and that is what gets their pet killed. The wolves will always be the bad guy. Whether a wolf kills a deer or a dog, they will be demonized for it. No matter what the wolf does, it’s looked at as bad.

      • jon Says:

        Nope, that’s the sad thing. Things won’t change in my lifetime either immer. I’m afraid this is going to take years and years. It may never change at all. I wonder what the situation is going to be like 100 years from now when it comes to wolves. Will they be around? Will they be more accepted? We won’t know because all of us will be gone. I would like to think as the years go by, more and more education will be taught to people that wolves are not bad. They are not poachers or wildlife terrorists like the anti-wolf extremists claim. They are just a wild animal trying to make a living. I’m convinced that you will never changed how the rural westerners feel about wolves. They were brought up and taught to hate wolves. It’s very hard to change a bigot’s point of view on wolves when they have been raised to hate and despise wolves their whole lives. I believe today there are more and more wolf supporters than ever before and I believe we outnumber the wolf haters by a very large #.

    • jon Says:

      There are saying there is 800 plus wolves in Wisconsin.


      As you would expect, there are some claiming that wolves have killed off a lot of deer. Like immer said, this is a good thing because deer cause far more destruction and problems in WI than wolves.

      • Phil Says:

        And, eventually the smaller population of deer will more than likely drop the wolf population. I would have a hard time believing the wolf population has exceeded 800 in Wisconsin, and the deer population has dropped significantly, because I continue to hear that deer are populating larger cities further south in the state, but I am not a biologist there and have not concluded population status of the two species.

      • jon Says:

        Special groups don’t look at the positives the wolf brings because all they care about are high deer #s. Wolves kill deer, we all know that. DEER also cause a lot of problems and some want the deer #s lowered because of the problems they cause. The most important one is deer running into people’s car and causing an accident which sometimes results in the death of a person. lower deer #s are better, but you will always have those people whose only concern is having very high deer #s so they can shoot them.

      • jon Says:

        deer will never be wiped out by wolves. Some people just want the wilderness to be a deer and elk game farm.

      • ProWolf in WY Says:

        Jon, most people out west seem to want a deer and elk game farm. The only animals worth saving are worth it because they are fun to shoot and good to eat.

  97. wolf moderate Says:

    Economic conditions could become the biggest obstacles to the preservation and enhancement of the environment.


  98. jon Says:


    “Hunters complain that the wolves – who hunt for survival using only their bodies – impede the hunters’ ability to hunt for fun with high-powered rifles. It bears noting that before wolves were extirpated from the region, they coexisted with humans with little incident. Those humans also hunted elk, but did so with bows, arrows, and spears. Despite the challenges posed by wolves, fewer elk, and low-tech gear, they managed to find enough game to survive.
    It seems reasonable to assume that today’s hunters, whose survival depends more on supermarkets than elk, and who enjoy competitive advantages and a far larger elk population, could do likewise.”

  99. JB Says:

    It has taken a bit of time to analyze the data, but we have finally put together a post on the data we collected with the help of Ralph and The Wildlife News. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to fill out the survey.

    Here’s the post: https://bruskotter.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/youre-being-emotional-no-you-are/

    • Phil Says:

      JB: The post pulled up, but the models did not.

    • Immer Treue Says:

      Models pulled up fine here.

      • Phil Says:

        Did the models pull up some time after the post pulled up itself? For some reason my laptop has been working pretty low the last few days that I go on this website. Every other site works fine with speed, but kind of slow on this site.

  100. Larry Zuckerman Says:



    • Rita K.Sharpe Says:

      No surprise to me.

    • Daniel Berg Says:


    • Phil Says:

      To me these individuals have a similar belief system of wolves that the country had back when our wolf population was eliminated. The only difference is that these individuals are hiding this belief and ways of dealing with wolves with garbage like this “Disaster Emergency Bill”. As Larry mentioned, what would be the purpose of this bill now that wolves are going to be delisted? Similar belief, but different methods of actions being taken.

    • Larry Zuckerman Says:

      In the letter, he admits the bill he signed into law today violated the State Constitution by mixing the Executive Powers to declare an emergency with the powers of the State Legislature. As worded in the bill and now signed into law, the Legislature changed one of the powers of the Governor (to declare a “disaster emergency”) and decided to share it with him.

      Seems like he is also encouraging those Idaho citizens feeling threatened by wolves to kill them.

    • Immer Treue Says:

      Based on this, and I certainly hope I am not jumping to conclusions, but are the days numbered for any wolves in the Lolo zone

      • timz Says:

        Hey, Immer I just heard the news about the death of Maya at the IWC. Saw her when she was only a few eeks old.

      • Rita K.Sharpe Says:

        I am not to sure any wolf will be safe.

      • Immer Treue Says:


        I really did not see her all that often, but once last Summer, after a Mech presentation at the Wolf Center we watched the captive pack feed, and it was interesting to see how the other wolves deferred to her.

        Time passes by quickly.

    • jon Says:


      The best I’ve heard in a while.

    • Phil Says:

      I can only believe it when I see that Japan will not go out and kill whales during the months that they would have had their whaling season. If it is true, this is excellent news.

      • jon Says:

        Baby steps Phil. Cherish these victories. I would like to see trophy hunting of lions and other african animals banned. Maybe that will happen in the near future. We can only hope.

  101. Phil Says:

    I would like to see all form of trophy hunting banned and have hunting serve for only those who depend on it for survival. As for this instance, although Japan did not come out and say it, we believed they were not going to conduct their whaling this past winter, but they eventually did a few days after their initial start date.

    • wolf moderate Says:

      be careful what you wish Phil. Hunters contribute greatly to wildlife and environmental issues. Possibly you are ignorant or perhaps your hatred of trophy hunters blinds you to the good that they do for nature, either directly or indirectly and knowingly or unknowingly.

      • Phil Says:

        wolf moderate: Well, I am ignorant in your eyes then, because I do not see any good qualities in killing for fun. It may, as you said, help indirectly, but the main purpose of that individual in killing for fun is not for the bettering of nature. I do not hate trophy hunters, I hate what they do. As I mentioned before, I have a friend who has a couple friends who trophy hunt in birds, but we hang out at times. I guess I value life more so then people like you do.

      • Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Says:

        Phil –
        Your reference to “trophy hunt in birds” is curious. What exactly to you mean when you refer to “trophy hunting” or “trophy hunters”?

      • Phil Says:

        Mark: I put sport hunting and trophy hunting in the same category. Whether it is birds or terrestrial mammals, if it serves not for a important purpose, then it is a sport (trophy), or trophy (sport).

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