Saw this sign late in October near Gibbonsville, Idaho. This business serves beer and pizza to hunters. I wonder if the Guv knows how literally some people here take his pronouncements. Then again, he probably does. And doesn’t care.
Intelligentsia of the North Fork
November 22, 2010 — louise wagenknecht124 Responses to “Intelligentsia of the North Fork”
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November 22, 2010 at 2:53 PM
I’ll take all bets the hillbillies that own this place still voted for Otter.
November 23, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Wow. That is not only frightening, but very sad.
This really gets to the heart of the “wolf problem.” It’s just angry, white rural guys venting – most of them hunters.
November 22, 2010 at 3:59 PM
must be a sequel to their sign when it read:
“tag a wolf get a free pizza and pitcher of beer“
November 22, 2010 at 5:06 PM
One good thing about signs like these: they let one know which places NOT to patronize.
November 22, 2010 at 5:25 PM
Yeah but you can do all of your Christmas shopping on one web site:
http://josephinesidahorvpark.com/wolf-t-shirts.html
Ralph, what size of sweatshirt do you wear?
November 22, 2010 at 5:44 PM
I found this one, in particular, to be “gem”:
“Wolf Quote on Shirt Says ” Put Judge Molloy on the “Endangered Feces” List!”
Nothing like mixing anti-federal government sentiment with “potty” humor only a middle-school aged boy could appreciate.
November 22, 2010 at 5:59 PM
i’ll bet it’s a big seller … at school they claimed that “problem identification” was the first step to formulation of public policy … i’m beginning to wonder whether these t-shirts may be a good start !
November 23, 2010 at 5:50 AM
Ranchers – Problem: Wolves eat our cattle. Solution: Remove wolves.
Hunters – Problem: Wolves eat our elk. Solution: Remove wolves.
Environmentalist – Problem: There are too few wolves in the US. Solution: Protect wolves.
Animal rights – Problem: People should not kill animals; wolves are an animal. Solution: Protect wolves.
Tea Partiers – Problem: The federal government doesn’t work. Solution: Elect people to the federal government who agree with you and have a vested interest in making sure that the government doesn’t work. Seek to repeal or replace any federal law that you perceive as remotely affecting your “freedom”. Take money from the public school system (after all its govt. and doesn’t work) and purchase guns and bibles for all of the children.
[Okay: Just to be clear, I’m kidding😉 ]
November 23, 2010 at 8:44 PM
JB – I like to think you weren’t kidding because you nailed it on the head.
November 22, 2010 at 6:11 PM
And they are wolf biologists to boot! I am impressed! “We have witnessed the decrease of OUR elk and deer population over the past few years. The wolves hunt the animals for sport leaving them without eating them!
I think they are good candidates for shock treatment, detox or both. We need to isolate the defective gene pool quickly.
November 22, 2010 at 7:06 PM
I can only imagine what they talk about when they are in there. Those dam 200 pound canadian wolves are eating all our elk and deer.
November 22, 2010 at 8:04 PM
There’s nothing quite like “hillbilly ambience to go with that stale beer”
November 22, 2010 at 5:30 PM
Brian! I actually spent some time earlier this afternoon, after seeing this post, trying to find a picture of that sign.
“tag a wolf get a free pizza and pitcher of beer“
Not trying to be sarcastic……….okay, yeah I am….. but a “god fearing” neighbor of mine (who’s also very anti-wolf because after all, wolves must be sent from hell, if they are interfering with a rancher’s or hunter’s way of life around these parts) posted it on her website last year after running across it while in Idaho, looking for fruit to bring back and can.
November 24, 2010 at 5:49 PM
I just had to weigh in on this, especially since I still have a copy of that post from last year with the pizza and beer bounty on a wolf. They also had many sweatshirts and tshirts for sale at the Lemhi County Fair this year – some quite humorous, a few very pointed at doing harm at a Federal judge (Missoula, MT is his court). One said “Hey Judge Molloy, Dick Cheney wants to take you hunting”
Also the “Cope” comment in the North Fork restaurant review is probably from one of our illustrious, anti-Federal government, wolf-hating county commissioners, Bob Cope, who refers to himself in the third-person as “Cope” – sort of like what Bob Dole used to do when he was running for President – must be a Republican thing that I don’t understand.
Anyway, the phone number is on the sign and they might consider deliveries.
http://picasaweb.google.com/WWPCentralIdahoSalmon/WhatSWrongWithIdahoWolfHaters9109923AM#
Larry Zuckerman, Salmon, Idaho
November 22, 2010 at 7:09 PM
This is funny, I found this.
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-47985654R-josephines_pizza__rv_park-i
kort, 10/16/10
The food is excellent and I love the atmosphere. Anyone who has common since would. Don’t go bashing us ‘hicks’ when you have no idea what the wolf has brought on this area. Yes wolves were here first, but the wolves that roam this area were brought in and are much more aggressive than what should be here. They have affected elk herds, cattle herds and the safety of those of us who enjoy being in the great outdoors. Do your research hippies.
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USER RATING
By Diane, 3/28/10
You have got to be pretty demented to put a sign like that outside your greaseball restaurant. The wolf is a majestic animal and should be left alone to live out it’s life in peace without a bunch of redneck hicks want to slaughter them.
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USER RATING
By Cope, 11/18/09
I assure you that the pizza and beer are great, and the wolf reward is quite justifiable. Also, I doubt if avid readers of Earthjustice newsletters are particularly welcome anywhere near here.
November 22, 2010 at 7:21 PM
Actually that is not a very good place to eat given the choices. A few miles south down US 93 is a Mexican restaurant with decent food. Farther south down the road is the 100 Acre Wood a bed and breakfast which has award winning cuisine on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays . I have never been able to get a table there; they are a preorder dinner establishment and I am to unpredictable to preorder. Either I do not want to get out of Goldbug Hot Springs or I fish to late and have to hurry home. Finally the restaurant at North Fork has excellent pie and decent sandwiches.
November 22, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Funny you guys sound exactly like these people, just with a differnt view point and you don’t even understand that! Fricken sad!!!!!
November 23, 2010 at 9:32 AM
Present an articulate argument!
November 22, 2010 at 9:39 PM
Craig,
It seems folks here don’t like the pizza place’s signs, but how are folks here exactly like them, but with a different view point?
November 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM
Well the name calling ect. just makes them no differnt! The Wolf haters think they are right, the Wolf lovers think they are right. Getting on this forum to call them names just takes them to there level! Take a higher road and skip the redneck whatever BS! It just makes it a childish playground game! I mean it’s just a stupid ass name calling non ending game that gets old! Don’t you think Ralph?
November 24, 2010 at 3:27 PM
Craig,
You’ve made a fair point about childish name calling, but let’s not forget what these people are being berated for: They are publicly advocating BREAKING THE LAW (in this case, poaching). Actually, assuming Idaho’s classification still stands, they are advocating breaking multiple laws (i.e., federal law protecting endangered species, and state law making it illegal to take trophy game without a permit).
Where is the indignation from the hunting crowd over a public display that advocates the illegal taking of wildlife?
November 24, 2010 at 5:27 PM
Apparently, it is non-existent?
November 24, 2010 at 5:51 PM
Not that I agree with the action, but perhaps they view it as ‘civil disobedience’.
On one hand, you have federal/state sponsored wolf killing, and now on the other, protection.
November 22, 2010 at 10:02 PM
You know as well as anyone you have extremists on either side of the battle and throwing shit gets you know where! Common Sense and a true passion for real facts will in the end lead to the way. It may take longer but will prevail in the end. I admire that you don’t make these comments to either side Ralph and I put you at a higher level or respect you more for that!
November 22, 2010 at 11:03 PM
having an opinion is one thing, but putting up signs and making stupid tShirts is another. It’ obvious from their approach they are white trash hillbillies IMHO.
November 22, 2010 at 10:52 PM
Probably Craigs cousins
November 22, 2010 at 11:05 PM
Not even close! But nice of you to put your norrow minded sarcastic view towards me anyway! And again a perfect example of the same shit! Thanks Timz!
November 22, 2010 at 11:12 PM
Craig’s kinda upset, must be close cousins, like the kind in Arkansas.
November 22, 2010 at 11:37 PM
Why would I be upset from someone who knows nothing about me making accusations about me? It just shows your
ignorance and hate because you think I have a differnt opinion than yourself! See Ralph you have people on here with hate and discontent for no real reason other than Ignorance! Ignorance is Bliss!
November 23, 2010 at 8:52 PM
No Craig, it shows that your attempt to equate people commenting on this topic making fun of ignorant rednecks who advocate breaking the law is as stupid as your ridiculous post. Nice try.
November 22, 2010 at 11:39 PM
Cmon Craig admit, your wearing one of those Tshirts now aren’t you.
November 22, 2010 at 11:43 PM
“Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge). The word ignorant” is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult. “Ignoramus” is commonly used in the UK and Ireland as a name of someone who is overwhemingly ignorant.”
Timz this applies to you more than I can say!
November 22, 2010 at 11:48 PM
Try again, not all that impressive, my kid could quote the dictionary at about 4 years old.
November 22, 2010 at 11:44 PM
Ya but I’m not the one defending wolf hating trash.
November 22, 2010 at 11:47 PM
When did I? Post the exact words I said defending it!
November 22, 2010 at 11:50 PM
You chastised the people on here for calling what is is, hillbilly bullshit.
November 22, 2010 at 11:56 PM
Craig, perhaps this site isn’t suited to your tastes. There are many other sites on the web and surely one is just right for you; perhaps you need to look for one like that.
November 22, 2010 at 11:59 PM
Ya, like saveourelk, you know the poachers site.
November 23, 2010 at 12:02 AM
You are so wrong it’s scary! I’ve been on this site since somewhere around 1999. Why would I have read it since then?
November 23, 2010 at 12:00 AM
That’s just your opinion because you have a differnt view! Now if somone has a differnt view than yours are you tree hugger PETA Liberal asshole to everyone who doesn’t think like you? Can you have no objective view to anyone ones opinion? You view everthing one way with no comprimise and only one side! That gets no results and nothing but a pissing match! You are the apitamity of what’s wrong with this whole situation and why it will neve get resolved!
November 23, 2010 at 12:04 AM
Do all people with different views post stupid signs and make Tshirts that say shit like ” Put Judge Molloy on the “Endangered Feces” List”?
Only in your world apparently.
November 23, 2010 at 12:08 AM
No only ignorant people do! And Ignorant people like you accuse everyone of being that way!
November 23, 2010 at 12:17 AM
And I did that where?
November 23, 2010 at 9:39 AM
Craig,
You have legitimate concerns about name-calling and sterotypes; however, your rhetoric is angry, reactive and inflammatory. Just chill out a bit and express yourself calmly without hostility. By doing this, you might be able to engage others in an intelligent debate at this website.
November 23, 2010 at 8:56 PM
STG – That is reasonable but then again you are trying to talk reason to someone who thinks bullshit + volume = winning arguments.
November 23, 2010 at 12:00 AM
I guess I know which restaurant not to visit if I ever happen to be in the area (unlikely). Just more example of the extremist view of so many people in the Northern Rockies. The clothing and sign is like someone throwing a temper tantrum.
And timz and Craig, I think you two are throwing a bit of a tantrum also. Can’t we all just get along?😉
November 23, 2010 at 12:04 AM
No not with half-wit wolf haters.
November 23, 2010 at 12:05 AM
Yeah we can get along! Timz where do you live? I’ll meet ya for a beer and we can have a nice debate!
November 23, 2010 at 12:10 AM
ya, we can meet at Josephines, I’ll even get you another TShirt
December 15, 2010 at 9:15 PM
Why don’t you both come to Josephine’s and we can have a debate on the wolf issue. I’ll give both of you a T-Shirt!
December 2, 2010 at 1:22 AM
you saying that its “unlikely” for you to ever visit the area also means you don’t comprehend the situation there i.e. no hands on experience.
fact: wolf population is growing while elk and deer herds are being reduced(caused by the amount of game wolves must kill to sustain themselves and there sport killings.
fact: if this trend continues wolves will eventually kill of there food supplies and in turn starve to death themselves. [believe it or not the wolves have also been taking over mountain lion kills causing mountain lions to lose there food and starve to death(I don’t think there has been any studies on this, but I have witnessed it first hand)].
(the owners just moved her within the last 2 years so please don’t judge the entire place from one persons remark). I do think it was quite ignorant when they made this sign, and some of the T-shirts they made, but something does need done to manage the wolves. the hunting season we had on them last year seemed to work great in my opinion. Hunting is a big part of the economy there and the wolves have been decreasing the amount of game causing a lot of businesses to suffer. I’m not completely anti wolf, but I must say the hunting was way better when they weren’t as prominent of a predator. state fish and game should be able to manage All game in the region accordingly to the circumstances.please give some feedback if you disagree or have any other ideas.
and i’m pretty sure timz is trolling or just narrow minded.
December 2, 2010 at 1:42 AM
and fish and game did make a mistake a couple years ago with the deer, but still wolves have been chasing cow elk causing them to abort there pregnancies so there have been very few to no calves the last couple of years, it is true that hunters kill alot of game but thats been going on for decades and its just recently that the numbers have been changing so drastically and the only new player is wolves.
December 2, 2010 at 3:09 AM
Itparkbum,
Wolves have been in the area for 15 years now. They were released just nearby on the Main and Middle Forks of the Salmon River. I don’t think 15 years is just recent. If there really has been a recent change (do you have figures?), wolves are certainly not a new player. Perhaps an increase in deer and elk poachers is new.
December 2, 2010 at 8:08 AM
I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a real “I’m gunna git mine before the wolves do” mentality spreading like wildlife out there. The hysteria is mindblowing for a handful of wolves across such a great territory.
December 2, 2010 at 9:48 AM
Ralph,
++Wolves have been in the area for 15 years now.++
I am constantly confused by statements like that. Wolves have been in “the area,” but the net numbers have increased over time. Thus their impacts (good or bad) increase as a function of higher density and/or larger range over time. And, as we have seen (at least the annual wolf management reports submitted by IDFG to FWS show that there are more and more packs with expanding and sometimes overlapping ranges). Of course, 100 wolves eat more than 10, and what may have been compensatory killing of elk or other ungulates becomes increasingly additive.
December 2, 2010 at 1:49 PM
Lolo 12 2006 Jan 1658
Lolo 12 2010 Jan 705
yeah wolves have been around alot longer than the last couple of years but there number have been very trivial until around 07, above are stats for the lolo elk herd look it up yourself if you don’t believe me. the only other thing I can see causing this is a disease, but fish and game has not released any information about such a thing
December 2, 2010 at 8:09 AM
To add to that, these people are buffoons and the only thing that will stop their crazy behavior is when it costs them $200 to fill their truck.
November 23, 2010 at 12:05 AM
Just a little side note, doesn’t it seem strange this site advertises for hunting but then also talks about wolves killing everything? I’m no expert in advertising but shouldn’t you not write about wolves killing game like that when you want to attract hunters? I think some of these people in these states need to really think about how much they are complaining about wolves. If I were some rich East Coast client who was looking to book a hunt and I kept reading about wolves killing everything in the Northern Rockies I don’t think I’d be booking a hunt there.
November 23, 2010 at 3:15 PM
++Just a little side note, doesn’t it seem strange this site advertises for hunting but then also talks about wolves killing everything? ++
There’s a couple different points of irony there. First, the hunters kill far more elk than the wolves. Secondly, they are scaring away prospective hunters by down playing the amount of wildlife. The sign is a double whammy of stupidity.
November 23, 2010 at 3:25 PM
I am not sure about that Mike. Hunters have killed 16,000 elk in recent past hunting seasons in Idaho. These numbers come from the IDFG. I don’t know how many elk wolves are killing. I do know in other states where they have wolves, wolves are the ones blamed for low deer #s when infact the numbers show hunters are responsible for killing many more deer than wolves. By saying wolves have wiped out all of your wildlife, you can be sure that out of state hunters won’t be coming to your state. When you hunt, there is no guarantee you’re going to get your animal anyways.
November 23, 2010 at 3:48 PM
++I am not sure about that Mike. Hunters have killed 16,000 elk in recent past hunting seasons in Idaho. These numbers come from the IDFG.++
Think about it. If the wolves were not there then hunters may have killed a number way larger the 16,000 elk. The wolves are not going to kill all of the elk, but there will be reduce hunting opportunity, shorter seasons, fewer tags issued and fewer either sex hunting.
I just had a friend of mind return from a float down the Middle Fork of the Salmon. He is an excellent hunter, the best. In a one week trip they saw 13 six point bulls and 56 cow elk and no calves. They were only hunting 350 plus bulls and the largest bull was a 320 so they passed.
The problem is that there are only six point bulls and no calves. The cow elk would not lay down and sleep and were on alert all of the time. The mountain sheep were find. Without calves in several years down the road the population is going to be crash. Then there is the lack of smaller bulls. The elk numbers will be reduced and the wolves will move on to different areas and eventually the wolf population will be reduced and the number of elk will increase. But we are humans and want are elk population high with the greatest hunting opportunities. That is the way it is in the west and the way it will be. Yes, the wolves are here to stay but they will be managed either by court or congressional action.
November 23, 2010 at 4:22 PM
Jon – I doubt that Idaho wolves have killed 16,000 elk this year. The hunting season is clearly the biggest cause of any loss of elk.
If people were *truly* concerned about elk popualtions, they would top shooting them with lethal projectiles.
November 23, 2010 at 4:36 PM
No disagreement there Mike.
November 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM
Elk–are there other sources of mortality in the Middle Fork besides wolves? Humans, lions, bears, coyotes, accidents, disease, etc.? Is it always wolves and nothing else? Of all the places in the lower 48, don’t you think a wilderness as remote and rugged as the Frank Church might be a place where predators can have at least a fair share of the spoils?
November 24, 2010 at 3:17 PM
Thanks for making that point, Jay. If anything that kills elk is bad, why should we stop at removing wolves. Might as well take out black bear, cougar, grizzly, and coyotes for good measure. Actually, since cars kill a lot of elk perhaps we should outlaw them (Mike would like that)? But why stop there?! Cattle compete with elk for food; lets get rid of them too! We can turn Idaho into one gigantic elk farm and ensure every hunter gets his chance. Maybe we should try supplemental feeding as well? And an epidemiological program to prevent infectious diseases. With enough time, elk might even be as dumb as sheep. Then you could “hunt” them with a hammer! 😉
Sorry, once I got going I just couldn’t stop. This thread has really brought out the worst in me!
December 15, 2010 at 9:34 PM
It’s not all about money. I feel bad for people like you!
November 23, 2010 at 12:19 AM
I’d like that timz bring the shirt with you and make it and xxxl please!
November 23, 2010 at 12:23 AM
“I’d like that timz bring the shirt with you”
Who would have thunk it?
November 23, 2010 at 12:31 AM
Haahaha you twist everything, you should be in politicts! You are good I’ll give you you that!
November 23, 2010 at 12:38 AM
“I’d like that timz bring the shirt with you”
You can’t even quote per say, sad your igroance shines through at every moment!
November 23, 2010 at 12:43 AM
Huh? You’d better quit now before you look more foolish than you already do.
November 23, 2010 at 12:47 AM
It’s plain for all to see how you are drawn to defend these people at Josephines. Enough said. Good night now.
November 23, 2010 at 1:34 AM
Haven’t had so much reading the Craig-timz verbal exchange since my kids were 5 years old. Round 1 goes to timz for having to go to bed. How about spitballs and sticking out your tongues on Tuesday? But I’m telling mom when you guys start flickin buggers.
November 23, 2010 at 7:52 AM
All I can say is WOW
November 23, 2010 at 10:13 AM
Craig, it is always amusing to have people such as yourself screaming about name calling, and yet in virtually every one of your posts above, that is all you do. Mirrors can be of value; use one.
November 23, 2010 at 12:07 PM
I agree with Craig, though I would not use his rhetoric, nor would I reply to trolling flame bait…
However, I’ve been reading this forum for only a couple of years, but seemingly more so lately it seems to have gone down to a fighting match, where no one comes out the winner.
I admit I do not quite live in the area and do not know much first hand about these problems but I have done what I can to educate myself and understand both sides point of view. In that, I don’t understand why people would rather debase each other and fight, hindering the goals that they have, rather than attempting to work together to achieve them.
EX: Someone who hunts obviously has an investment into wildlife, someone who keeps livestock or ranches wants to keep the land healthy, someone who cares about the environment and ecosystems most likely wants both, and thus, we know that these both go hand in hand as well.
However, if someone just wants the wolves all gone, and someone else just wants the cows all gone, and someone else doesn’t want elk, and someone has this issue and that issue, we’ll all just butt heads till we achieve headaches.
That said, this blog seems to support attacking people and from that I do not know how much I support this blog. I support healthy ecosystems, wolves, wildlife, hunting, ranching, because these all can help create healthy ecosystems that will sustain and allow all living beings to prosper. I do not support the knee jerk reactions that this post highlights (both the content of the post, and the comments on the post).
November 23, 2010 at 1:12 PM
Fenriswolfr:
I have learned a lot about wildlife issues from this website. I agree that there is often posturing and hostility. Nevertheless, there are many insightful comments and not everyone who comments on this blog engages in such rhetoric. Generally, I would say that the comments by the women don’t reflect negative discourse. Women speak with a different voice and style. I don’t want to appear sexist, so I will also say that there are some very astute, intelligent men who comment on this blog as well. Don’t give up on this website.
November 23, 2010 at 6:22 PM
I definitely have learned a lot, especially from some of the more outlying posters. Some people do bring some profundity and I look for that. Typically however, these people present different viewpoints than I myself see. Usually, these don’t reflect opposite viewpoints, just different, or one I have not yet seen.
November 23, 2010 at 4:46 PM
This at one time was as the title suggest a WILDLIFE BLOG, not a hunting blog, not a ranching blog and whatever else. Those that come here with their anti-wolf attitudes can and should expect to be verbally abused, just as I would if I went to a hunting blog and posted anti-hunting rants. fenriswolfr, while you seem to have reasonable views your post sounds like whining.
November 24, 2010 at 8:51 AM
I wonder what the moderators think about your rules for this blog as far as insulting people. You verbally abuse people here because others would verbablly abuse you elsewhere. And that helps wolves how?
fenriswolf said nothing that was anti-wolf yet you insultingly label his or her comments as “whining”. There’s no justification for that rudeness. It’s unproductive and inconsistent with the information sharing/solution seeking potential of this blog. Try posting without insulting people for a change.
November 24, 2010 at 9:27 AM
Timz – I’m not sure its possible to have just a wildlife blog without taking on or talking about the issues that so often effect their existence – like hunting and ranching.
November 24, 2010 at 9:49 AM
Great, we now have a holier-than-thou blog policeman who goes by cc. And your post soounds like whining also.
November 24, 2010 at 1:07 PM
I agree Nancy, hunting suggests a participation with wildlife, as does ranching via participation with a land base. Actually, thinking about it, just about everything has an impact on wildlife. Obviously, this blog doesn’t have posts about hunting techniques, ranch management, etc. but if it did have posts on those techniques, practices, etc. that had an impact on wildlife, well, why not?
November 24, 2010 at 1:41 PM
Nancy, I agree in general but here is an example the type of crap I get sick of reading here.
“The wolves are not going to kill all of the elk, but there will be reduce hunting opportunity, shorter seasons, fewer tags issued and fewer either sex hunting.”
It’s real hunting “conversation” it’s whining.
November 24, 2010 at 2:45 PM
timz,
++….an example the type of crap I get sick of reading.++
You may perceive it as whining by the hunting crowd, but it is an issue at the very heart and, from a practical perspective, central to the reintroduction of the NRM wolves, as a non-essential experimental population. Were it not for this provision, and the promises/guarantees of management of wolves for impacts on livestock and ungulates, this reintroduction would not have progressed as far as it has, warts and all, and been as successful in terms of numbers and distribution.
Be thankful for small favors timz.
And, read the 1994 EIS.
November 24, 2010 at 3:46 PM
WM, I call bullshit on that, it’s generally the same people whining before re-intro that are doing it now. None of those things you mentioned changed a single person mind.
November 24, 2010 at 3:56 PM
Of course wolves will have an impact on elk, which will thus have an impact on the big life of the land (vegetation, etc.) which will have an impact on elk, which will.. etc. I ask this, what can people do to see more healthy ecosystems? Do wolves help create healthy ecosystems? If so, and if people want to also see elk/wildlife for sustainable hunting, how can the land support more of both? I don’t think this has to come down to either wolves or elk, hunting or not. What causes the biggest decline in elk (or limiting population/range?) If you have an elephant in the room, why attack the mouse?
November 24, 2010 at 4:34 PM
fenriswolfr:
The concept of “ecosystem health” is, in itself, controversial. Some would argue that no on state is more or less healthy, but rather, simply different. The preferred ecosystem state depends upon one’s goals. Thus, a landscape devoid of wildlife is perfectly acceptable to some people, while to others, it is a clear indicator of an unhealthy ecosystem.
I tend to think the idea of ecosystem health is a convenient way for conservationists to promote greater biological diversity, when in reality, we are arguing about what, exactly, we would like the land to produce.
November 24, 2010 at 5:05 PM
Interesting point JB,
I agree in that I used ecological health and biological diversity to have the same meaning. In that way I equated a more diverse ecosystem as more healthy. However, as you note, a more diverse ecosystem is simply more diverse. However, current agricultural practices lean very heavily toward less diversity/mono-cultures.
I for one, would like to see more diversity, I would also like to eat more diversely.
November 24, 2010 at 5:26 PM
I agree with you about increased diversity; generally, diversity should make systems more resilient (which is a good thing). However, I think it is important to acknowledge the limitations of the “ecosystem health” argument.
November 25, 2010 at 8:19 PM
fenriswolfr, good reply!
November 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM
They just got their first review on yelp. One star.
November 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM
Fenriswolfr: have you spent any time reading the comments on the New West site after a good article, especially if its about wolves?
http://www.newwest.net/
I see mostly banter here and often, its good hearted banter along with some very informative information. On New West? Gloves off, low blows, demeaning remarks, name calling – seems to be the norm there.
November 23, 2010 at 6:31 PM
I have not really seen that website, but from my experience I notice that the less people on a site, or anywhere, know the other people, the more gloves off the comments to each other. I see a lot of repeat posters here which I like. I also like how people from different backgrounds and different, seemingly conflicting interests do post here.
November 23, 2010 at 5:16 PM
++In a one week trip they saw 13 six point bulls and 56 cow elk and no calves. They were only hunting 350 plus bulls and the largest bull was a 320 so they passed++
Elk, is it possible that some of those (elk) calves might of been left behind or held up somewhere, by fencelines?
Had a pod of 25+ elk calves in a pasture not far from me a few years ago, for most of a winter. Even with the gates wide open, the cow elk had already moved on, so these calves came close to starving to death (and a couple of them did) before neighbors noticed and started hauling hay in.
Fences are EVERYWHERE across the west because of livestock and some of those fencelines are just to damn high or just too badly maintained (only takes two very loose wires to snag and condemn an animal like a deer or elk to a slow death, hanging from one of those sections of fenceline)
SEEN IT!! and I’ve cut my share of Mulies out so far, from those fencelines. None of them made it, they’d been hung up and struggled to long.
I read somewhere that this happens every 2.5 miles out here in the west.
November 23, 2010 at 5:21 PM
Nancy
++Elk, is it possible that some of those (elk) calves might of been left behind or held up somewhere, by fencelines?++
Now read Jay’s comment
++Of all the places in the lower 48, don’t you think a wilderness as remote and rugged as the Frank Church might be a place where predators can have at least a fair share of the spoils?++
This is in the middle of the Frank Church Wilderness, I doubt if there is fence within 30 miles. Think about it.
Wolves are not the only cause of death but it takes percentage of calves to maintain the herd, when that percentage falls the herd started to decline.
November 23, 2010 at 5:28 PM
By the way some of the worst fence lines in the west are on Turner’s ranch. The high buffalo proof fences have proven to be big killers of elk. I have seen pictures of elk hung up in the fences on the Snow Crest Ranch.
By the way how much snow is in your neck of the woods and is it snowing? It is going to get 15 below tonight and tomorrow night in Bozeman, we have about a foot of snow on the ground. I am thinking about going to Dell for the next 4 days.
November 23, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Yes, you need some amount of recruitment, but again (and maybe I’m misinterpreting the tone of your comment?), you seem to suggest that any declines in elk numbers is to be blamed on wolves? Hypothetically speaking, if bear, lions, and wolves all killed roughly the same number of calves, is it fair to say any resulting prey decline is due to the wolves?
November 23, 2010 at 8:58 PM
Elk, better check the road report before heading to Dell. I-15 has been closed between Melrose & Dubois, ID most of the day.
November 24, 2010 at 8:36 AM
Nancy:
Thank you for talking about the problem of fences. I live in Bozeman, Montana where more fences are appearing all the time. Recently some land owners put up a huge fence to keep people from walking on their peace of paradise. The fence is so high–I don’t think wildlife are going to get over it or under it. I think these land owners are more concerned with property rights and only value wildlife in abstraction.
November 23, 2010 at 6:02 PM
+This is in the middle of the Frank Church Wilderness, I doubt if there is fence within 30 miles. Think about it+
Elk, forgive me for not recognizing that area but should I immediately blame wolves for a lack of elk calves or could there be another reason?
And Elk, there’s a good 8 inches of snow on the ground at my place right now, and there’s been a light snow falling most of the day. The temp has dropped from 6 (about an hour ago) to minus 2.
Heard the temps would be down to double digits below zero tonight. The high tomorrow is suppose to be around zero.
Might want to check the weather forecast before you head to Dell since parts of I-15 were closed today because of the weather………..
November 23, 2010 at 10:01 PM
I wonder if this place allows and serves pro wolf advocates. Someone should walk in there wearing a I love wolves t-shirt and see what happens.
November 24, 2010 at 1:23 AM
Jon,
Perhaps you should come on down?
November 24, 2010 at 3:16 PM
I am sure you could incite some form of hostility depending on your actions, but in today’s economy, I can only assume your money would be good. It’s an RV park after all, they are somewhat reliant of tourism of some kind.
Nothing better than excellent Italian fare served with a heavy dose of hostility.🙂
November 24, 2010 at 2:57 PM
7 hours and it still hasn’t busted loose yet. The electric meter must be spinning like a top out there with two, count em, two electric heaters, strategically placed – going full blast! Should of remembered to get some heat tape, or better yet, invested in a milkhouse heater for the crawl space ( its not like the darn line to the toilet hasn’t froze up before!) but noooooo! Got fooled by the beautiful weather…… The insulation in that wall is sooooo pathetic!!!!
Now THAT’S whining, Timz
November 24, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Yes, but that’s a GOOD excuse to whine.
November 24, 2010 at 4:21 PM
Well, the Water Gods must of been listening to me whine Timz because it broke loose about 20 minutes ago. Now all I have to do is get up every hour, on the hour, tonight and flush AND keep the heaters going since its going down to -17 (not including wind chill) Last night it was just a mere 10 below zero.
November 24, 2010 at 4:24 PM
just leave a faucet drip, that’s how I get thru super cold nights. I let it drip in a bucket and use the water later.
November 24, 2010 at 4:43 PM
Nancy,
My apologies for butting in, but if I are accepting suggestions on the freezing water issue permit me to offer a suggestion. If I understand your problem, it is the water supply to the toilet, that is at risk of freezing up. This can sometimes be prevented by keeping a very small water flow going thru the toilet constantly. One way of doing this is to keep the flapper that releases the water reservoir when you flush, from totally sealing. You can do this by putting something very small, like a paperclip slipped over the rubber flapper, or a table knife blade (it depends on how the seal is configured if yours doesn’t use a rubber flapper, but maybe even something thinner) to keep the seal open just a very tiny bit. It will be noisy because the water will run just like when the reservoir fills after a flush, but might be better than nothing. Same thing is true for any water faucets that might run the risk of freezing up -just put them on a tiny bit (also open under sink cabinet doors to get a little heat in there). Any heat source like a trouble lamp or desk lamp that produces heat in a small cold area helps alot. Be careful not to electrocute yourself when you have electrical stuff near water, if you don’t have a GFI circuit.
November 24, 2010 at 4:43 PM
Nancy, even though expensive, the heat tapes are well worth the investment, I would be happy to help you out, if I were not so far away, glad to hear you got it broke free, the first year we lived here, we were without water for about 6 weeks due to froze pipes, and it was a challenge to get under the house to replace pipes when it was so cold.
From experience, yes, frozen pipes are good excuse to whine!
November 24, 2010 at 4:49 PM
I agree with WM, when it gets this cold, I have a couple of “gaskets” that I cut out of the plastic lid on a butter container the I place on the flapper area of the toilet that allows the tank to almost fill up and still allows a small amount of water to continuously drain, thus keeping the valve open…if you can keep the water moving just a small bit, it does not allow it to freeze hard.
One other area to check and it took me a couple of years to figure this out, if your on a well, which I suspect in your area you are, make sure there is heat around the pressure switch, one the pressure tank, that is a very small area, and it will freeze up quickly! once that happens, if you don’t know that the pressure switch froze up, then it allows the rest of the system to freeze because you have no moving water in the system.
November 24, 2010 at 3:33 PM
i wish i could say that the tone mattered that much, at least with respect to impact on policy or management on the ground.
unfortunately – in my brief experience with wildlife and wolf management, i can honestly say that the most obnoxious whining and irrational reactionism works. it works at driving one’s agenda better than a dispassionate articulation of substantiated fact.
perhaps one might suggest that tone matters in the context of attracting support. to this i would suggest that given my personal observation – that fact may be true of wolf advocates as a subset within themselves (wolf advocates certainly hold themselves to a high standard – many of us get hell just for criticizing Livestock), but for everyone else it seems immaterial, if not the opposite. Conviction – whether it be substantiated in reason or not – seems to be an attractant for the lay-person – and it seems to be a whole lot better at generating political capital than facts, science, or political correctness.
November 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM
Completely true in my experience as well. People don’t have the attention span to follow anything more complex than a soundbite or the intellect to analyze anything deeper than a jingle. Emphatic assertion passes for leadership to them and that’s what they’ll follow. I’m afraid that, after a couple of centuries of toying with enlightenment, we’ve entered a counter-evolutionary dark age.
November 24, 2010 at 4:48 PM
From what I’ve been able to gather on leaving faucets dripping? You just end up filling up your septic tank (it probably works well though if one is tied into city water works) and unfortunately Timz, there’s no way to leave a toilet “dripping” and that was the only line that froze (this go around)
Sorry everyone, this is hardly wildlife news Timz and I have been bantering around here, but it does fall under “wild life” when it comes to the trials and tribulations of dealing with Montana winters!
November 24, 2010 at 4:57 PM
at my house 2 feet of snow Monday night, -3 last night and back in the 40’s by Saturday. Weird.
November 24, 2010 at 5:22 PM
timz,
I agree weird, but it seems the cold air mass is moving east faster than predicted this morning! Thank god…
November 24, 2010 at 5:53 PM
Don’t mind the snow, but too many things can go wrong in that bitter cold.
November 24, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Nancy,
As for the septic tank part, if your tank and drain field are below frost line (if it was properly installed it should be) the water should still escape the septic tank and move out into drain field where it will go down into the soil profile.
On the other hand, if the drainfield is subject to freezing, and you have knowledge of that, you might be right.
November 24, 2010 at 5:15 PM
Oh, and by the way, if you have an insulating layer of snow on the ground surface ( a foot or so) it will tend to protect your septic tank and drain field from the super cold temperatures.
One example is to think about how campers in a snow cave are at a relatively comfortable temperature (still below freezing, but not much), when it can be -20 outside the snow cave.
Maybe this is more information than you can use.
November 24, 2010 at 5:21 PM
Nancy, if your septic system was installed correctly, you will not have any problems at all, did you receive a well report and septic system report when you purchased the place, I would suspect, you should be fine, leaving a faucet run a bit..
As WM said, if you have at east a foot of snow on the ground, the insulation properties pretty much negates the problems, the snow is a great insulation in this type of situation.
November 24, 2010 at 6:08 PM
Thanks SB and WM for the input!!
50 year old cabin, guessing there maybe little more than newspapers stuffed in the walls for insulation since there always seems to be a degree of “frost” showing thru in certain spots on the inside wall (between the plastic tiles someone slapped up for looks) when it gets this fricken cold!
November 24, 2010 at 6:44 PM
Nancy
It is only going to be 17 below tonight, in early December of 1983 Wisdom, Montana got down to 50 below. Now that is cold.
November 24, 2010 at 6:07 PM
For those of you who would like an alternative Wolf garment , I have a piece of t-shirt/sweathshirt art I did of a wolf sporting a nice pair of goat horns.
Underneath it merely says “Scapegoat”.
Sorry , no free beer or pizza for tagging one.
November 24, 2010 at 7:05 PM
Elk, my first taste of Montana was oh, just about 20 years ago. Landed in Billings. First Gulf War was playing out on the TV and within a short period of time, winter set in and one night the windchill brought the temps down to 75 degrees below zero. The pipes in the duplex I lived in froze up and the owner (and most of the tenents) were out of town for the holidays.
When the pipes thawed out and started bursting all over the duplex, I got my first taste of what it is was gonna be like living in the Big Sky” state.
I’m still here!!