Have you seen any interesting wildife news? April 20-May 1

Note that this replaces the 6th edition. That edition can be found slowly moving down into the depths of the blog.

Red necked grebes, Warm Lake, Idaho © Ken Cole

Red necked grebes, Warm Lake, Idaho © Ken Cole

Please don’t post entire articles here, just the link, title and your comments about the article. Most of these violate copyright law. They also take up too much space.

233 Responses to “Have you seen any interesting wildife news? April 20-May 1”

    • Salle Says:

      Two things;

      The rancher then related to the ex-outfitter that he was paid by the U.S. Federal Fish and Wildlife for cattle killing wolves live trapped on his ranch so that the wolves could be transplanted into Idaho.

      yeah, right. Being personally acquainted with the team(s) of wolf gatherers from the reintroductions, I am sure this guy has “the scoop” on all that went on, including the payoff he claims. It seems more likely that someone paid him tyo make up and distribute this “story” instead.

      Second, did anyone notice the date this tale was published? Not that it’s a real spoof, it’s probably true that the author has personal agenda and maybe a grudge.

      The whole story sound like a big alligator tears laden “boo Hoo” that is almost exactly thesame things you hear from the off-road whiners who say they hope that someday their grandchildren can ride ATVs in Yellowstone NP.

      Maybe these heritage folks could re-evaluate their family values to envision themselves as a part of the biosphere instead of the lords of it.

  1. Si'vet Says:

    Virginia, I look forward to the nonhunter, pro wolf response to the article Jon posted.

    • jon Says:

      Si’vet, this guy is a hunter. Hunters rarely ever say positive things about wolves fro my experience.

    • Save bears Says:

      Jon,

      I beg to differ, there are quite a lot of us hunters that don’t say negative comments about wolves, I know quite a lot of hunters that understand the relationship as it pertains to a total system.

      You really need to stop your rhetoric against hunters, it is getting old..I would say, 90% of the guys I know that are hunters, are adapting, the 10% that are not, are very vocal, but they are not the majority.

    • jon Says:

      The guy who wrote the article says, However our introduced wolves show no fear of man at this time. Where is his proof? I have not heard of anyone being attacked by wolves in Idaho since they were reintroduced. Livestock losses are going to happen whether wolves are afraid of humans or not. That is just a fact of life.

    • WM Says:

      jon,

      I am certainly not going to agree with most of what this Eastman chap says. It would just take to too long to go through all his questionable or generally false statements. They don’t add much to the conversation.

      I will say, however, that up until the wolf hunting season wolves had no reason to fear man. A wolf doesn’t need to attack somebody to show no fear. They are curious and under certain circumstances will test just what they can get away with – like going after a dog or a horse. Fear of man, to me has a much broader context.

      I have mentioned before one of my elk hunting partners getting within 35 feet or so of three wolves two years ago. I also talked by phone to a FS ranger in Kooskia just yesterday (I was hoping to do the Lolo Motorway in June if the snow allowed), who told me their horse packer had 8 wolves follow him for quite awhile last year.

      I sense you get locked into absolute statements which some people find unnecessarily inflamatory, and maybe you don’t really mean. For example, you said – “Hunters rarely ever say positive things about wolves from my experience.” Just put a “many,” “few” or “some” in front of “hunters”, if you believe it is a true statement. You will avoid a few unnecessary retorts.

    • JB Says:

      WM:

      Not to nitpick, but since you’re chastising Jon for not qualifying his statements, I have to take a moment to differ with your assertion that, “…up until the wolf hunting season wolves had no reason to fear man.”

      I spent a fare amount of time aggregating data from the last 10 years of USFWS wolf reports. These data show that, over the past decade 84% of all (2094) wolf mortalities were human-caused. To be clear, agency control actions accounted for 67% (1402) of wolf mortalities, “other” human causes (mostly illegal killing) constituted 17% (361), and harvest was just under 10% (206). Over this time period human causes of mortality increased from roughly 2/3rds in 2000 to 9/10s in 2009 and the proportion of the wolf population annually killed increased from 5% to over 30%.

      I’d say wolves have plenty of reason to fear humans, whether or not there is a regulated hunting season.

    • jon Says:

      WM, I know not all hunters hate wolves, but based on what I have seen on the internet and numerous messageboards and sites, I have to say the majority of comments that I have seen from hunters about wolves are not nice and I’m sure others on here have seen the same stuff as me. I am only telling you what I have seen. I have seen very few hunters say nice things about wolves, but are there some who do say good things about wolves? I’m very certain they are.

    • WM Says:

      JB,

      You are absolutely right! I wasn’t even focused on that aspect of it. I was thinking of wolves away from livestock, and 3S types, out in the wild where I have encountered them. I do feel dumb for not qualifying my own statement.

    • JB Says:

      No worries; I have certainly been guilty of the same. I should have added that I agree with your main point–I think making sweeping generalizations about hunters, non-hunters, urban residents, etc. only serves to further polarize an already contentious issue. Many of the people who post here are ardent supporters of wolves AND avid hunters–and this should not be overlooked!

    • WM Says:

      Not to beat this topic to death, but I do want to say one more time that RMEF was very slow to even enter a public discussion on wolves. They have been monitoring the reintroduction/repopulation from the mid 1990’s. Its membership, nearly exclusively hunters, has diverse views and alot of them (myself included, although I have an acknowledged numbers issue) want to see wolves on the landscape. Some (many?) do not have negative things to say, or are currently in the process of formulating an opinion. That is at least one reason why it has only been within the last year (maybe 6 months) that they have started as an organization to speak out – and in response to DOW, and participate in the delisting litigation. In doing so they may risk losing members (I doubt they will gain others), and let us not fool ourselves, that is a practical organizational concern during these economic times.

  2. jon Says:

    Save bears, I forgot to add some, not all hunters. I don’t want you to think that I think all hunters are and feel the same of wolves because some of them don’t. I just haven’t see many hunters on the internet that have said good things about wolves. The hunters that I encounter on various messageboards, more often than not, most of them don’t like wolves.

    • Save bears Says:

      And really it is getting old, you continue to do the same thing, you will put a post, then someone questions it, then you go back and reply, that “Oh, I forgot”. or “I should have said” .that is not fair Jon, if you were trying to be fair, you would not continue to make the same mistake..

  3. Save bears Says:

    Jon,

    And you seem to think those hunters on the internet are the majority! I know a lot of hunters, who don’t even own a computer, see that is the problem, if you get all of your information from the internet, you are often times going to be wrong..you have to look at many difference sources to gather information, the net is just one of those sources, and it is quite easy to be very vocal on the net..

    • Save bears Says:

      And I know for a fact, the Majority of hunters don’t feel negative towards wolves..at least in the areas that I frequent!

    • JB Says:

      Percentage of Idaho deer and elk hunters that agree with…

      “Wolves play an important role in Idaho’s ecosystems” (21%)
      “Humans can co-exist with wolves in Idaho” (33%)
      “The best wolf management strategy is to reduce wolf populations to the minimum pack numbers necessary to keep them off the endangered species list” (77%)
      “I’m glad that wolves were reintroduced into Idaho” (14%)

      These numbers came from IDF&G’s 2008 survey, which is an appendix in their wolf management plan. As Save Bears rightly noted, a substantial proportion of hunters in Idaho generally view wolves positively. However, I think it is pretty clear that these folks are in the minority–at least in Idaho.

    • jon Says:

      SB, that is good to know. As I said, I’m sure there are some hunters who do like wolves.

    • Save bears Says:

      JB,

      You and I know for a fact, I can go out or you can go out and conduct a survey, that will result in a desired outcome, I could go out tomorrow and conduct a survey that shows, 100% of the hunters hate wolves, or I could target in another area and completely turn the results around.. Surveys are exactly what they are, and that is targeted section of a specific group of the population, now we can break it down by county, city or neighborhoods…

    • JB Says:

      SB:

      Actually, I don’t think you could conduct a survey that showed that 100% of Idaho hunters hate anything. At least, not using IDF&G’s methodology. They used a stratified random sample of (n=125) deer and elk hunters from each of 7 regions across the state. Certainly, opinion polls can be manipulated (you could conduct a poll at an IDF&G meeting, or worse, a meeting of the so-called Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife, for instance). However, IDF&G used a mail survey of randomly selected big game hunters from around the state. I have no reason to doubt that their results are accurate within sampling and measurement error.

      I thought the point of your original post was that there was a great diversity in how hunters feel about wolves. If that is the case, I agree.

    • Save bears Says:

      JB,

      That is exactly what I meant, there is no way to generally categorize any group of people..which unfortunately often times gets done on this blog as well as many other websites and news services..

    • JB Says:

      What you’re talking about is stereotyping–i.e. using a social category (e.g. hunter) to make a generalization about everyone who fits into that category. Stereotypes exist for a reason. First, they are useful insomuch as they are accurate in describing some aspect of a population; second, without this type of categorization we would not be able to function. That is, if we made no (zero) generalizations about people, our we would soon overwhelm our brain’s capacity to process information.

      In this case, were you to assume that Idaho hunters dislike wolves, these data suggest you’d be right roughly 3/4s of the time.

  4. Nancy Says:

    I’m down here in Southwest Montana Jon and I’ve yet to hear a “nice” word about wolves from either the ranching or hunting part of the community.

    Both hate them from what I’ve been able to gather, WS planes up and entire packs gone in a hearbeat, for taking a calf here or there this past winter. Atleast two meetings that I heard about (after the fact – no notice given) on how FWP was gonna deal with that “pesky” wolf problem.

    Meanwhile, I had over 150 elk cross the hills behind me in the last week. They and atleast 100 antelope are now grazing over on the valley in front of me as I type. Would appear they have no real worries until this coming October.

  5. Si'vet Says:

    Jon, I agree, there will be the hunter slant. But also note the majority of links provided here with regards to wolves and elk are by nonhunters, so I believe there is a slant there as well. agree

  6. Si'vet Says:

    One other quick note, Man convicted of starving to death 43 head of cows, 2 yrs. probation, 2200.00 fine a little community service. whether or not your a fan of livestock, this should be a felony, I beleive this is one of the areas Idaho needs to come up to speed, crimes against animals.

    • Ken Cole Says:

      Good luck with that with this legislature. What about all of those cattle that die on the range due to lack of forage and water? That seems cruel to me too.

  7. WM Says:

    Speaking of abused animals, some friends of mine are leaving Ovando for the East – who will replace what these folks do?

    http://www.missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_ebc5f8e2-49de-11df-9357-001cc4c002e0.html

  8. Kropotkin Man Says:

    AZGFD responds to the OIG concerning the death of Macho B

    http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/jaguar/responseOIGReport.shtml

    • JB Says:

      So AZGFD is asking for a federal investigation of the federal investigation (by OIG), which should not be confused with the federal investigation being conducted by the FWS. How much money are we spending on these investigations?

      Frankly, I’d vote for foregoing the investigations and spending the money on jaguar recovery. This business gets ridiculous after a while.

    • Kropotkin Man Says:

      JB,

      I agree with your statement. I’m not up on all the politics and positioning from all acting agencies.

      The death of this cat is a very serious matter and the truth does need to come out. I would hope that egos, agency power, etc are secondary motives.

      There is a recent photo of an ocelot from down in SE corner of AZ obtained by the Sky Island folks. Will be interesting to see what may come of it.

    • JEFF E Says:

      one of my favorite qoutes” theres lies, theres damn lies, and there are statistics”

  9. Chris Harbin Says:

    It is a shame they are leaving Montana, but at least they won’t have to close their doors. A year or two ago the Colorado legislature proposed a law that made it mandatory for animal shelters such as these post a bond to cover the cost of the (possible) failure of such shelters. I do not know if this became law or not. In theory it sounds great – make sure the animals get taken care of if your shelter fails. In reality, most of the good people that do such things barely get by as it is. Best of luck to the Rolling Dog Ranch.
    Here is another shelter, mostly for dogs, that is interesting:

    http://www.bestfriends.org/atthesanctuary/angelcanyon/sacredsites2.cfm

    I’m surprised that Kanab let them set up shop.

    • WM Says:

      Jack Hanna, on his program “Into the Wild,” just did a really nice two part segment on the ranch. It is imbedded on their website. There was also an article on the move to NH in USA Today a couple of days back.

      http://www.rollingdogranch.org

  10. Cody Coyote Says:

    The April 21 online edition of the Jackson Hole news & Guide has a lengthy article on the widening breach over wolves –basically that conservation and environmental groups that should be working together to get wolves delisted are being wedged further apart, and it sounds like most of the blows to the wedge are being driven by commercial hunting interests such as Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. RMEF was in the early years of wolf reintroduction fairly neutral towards wolves or even supportive ( to a point). Not so with it’s come lately Director’s recent lambaste letter. Read on.

    “Wolf controversy polarizes”
    -Conservationists accuse each other of distorting elk and wolf data.

    by Cory Hatch
    http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5892

    • jon Says:

      Good article.

      “We are not misrepresenting data compiled by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation,” the letter continues. “The data we have referenced from the RMEF are undeniable: region wide, elk continue to thrive in the presence of wolves.”

      Dow is right on this one. The data that rmef show on their website says that elk herds are up. I believe rmef changed their tune about wolves because they don’t want to lose their members, but the data on their website does indeed show that elk herds are up.

    • WM Says:

      Does anyone know what Western Wildlife Conservancy is? They seem to be based out of Salt Lake City, and there is very little on the web about them. It does not appear they have a website, and the only name associated with the organization is its Executive Director, Kirk Robinson.

      Is this one of those 503(c)(3) organizations that consists of about three people – enough to have a BOD, on a personal mission, who file for a non-profit business license and set themselves up as some sort of authority/spokesperson speaking for many on an issue?

    • WM Says:

      Sorry, 501(c)(3).

    • JB Says:

      WM:

      WWC has been around for at least a decade. They are indeed very small; I believe Kirk Robinson was the founder.

      Here’s more info:

      To preserve and protect wildlife native to the intermountain West through research, education and advocacy. Their primary focus remains on native mammal predators. These include the following families and species:

      * Ursidae (grizzly bear, polar bear and black bear).
      * Felidae (mountain lion, Canada lynx and bobcat).
      * Canidae (gray wolf, coyote, and the gray, red, swift and kit fox).
      * Mustelidae (wolverine, fisher, marten and other members of the weasel family).

      Since the arrival of pioneer settlers in the mid-nineteenth century, most species of mammal predator in the intermountain West have suffered reduced ranges, and some have been completely extirpated from large portions of their historic range. Those which have been extirpated, or nearly so, from Utah and surrounding states, include the gray wolf, the Canada lynx, the grizzly bear, the wolverine and fisher.

      Their challenge is to protect the habitats of these species and to do what is possible to aid natural restoration of viable populations of them to suitable habitats. In some cases reintroduction may be advisable, as in the case of wolves being reintroduced into the Yellowstone area and in central Idaho.

      Modern conservation biology recognizes the fundamental importance of predator species to the health and proper functioning of ecosystems, which in turn is essential to the protection of watersheds.

      When predators are removed from an ecosystem, the naturally fluctuating balance among plant communities, herbivores and carnivores is upset, resulting in trophic cascade effects. This involves an unnatural proliferation of some species and a dying off of others. This in turn may adversely affect riparian habitats (streams, rivers and marshes).

      For example, removal of the wolf and the cougar (as in the case of Yellowstone National Park) may result in a proliferation of elk and a tendency for them to congregate without fear in riparian areas, which may in turn drastically reduce willow and aspen stands, which may in turn lead to an extirpation of beaver and otters.

      This may in turn alter the entire character and seasonal flow of the stream, thus destroying native fish. And so on. The old myth that predators rob from the community of life and provide nothing in return, is completely erroneous. We must learn to appreciate the fact that they are an essential and integral part of the community of life.

      This organization denounces that “the US Department of Agriculture’s ‘Star Wars’ Program Airborne Hunting Kills More than Wildlife”.

      Email: predator@xmission.com (not sure if this is up to date)

  11. pointswest Says:

    Where Did the Frogs Go in Idaho?

    In the late 60’s, my friends and I used to play in a creek not far from home. This creek was warm, about 55 degrees, and came from a large spring. The creek was large enough that it was hard to cross without getting wet. In the 60’s, the creek held thousands minnows, hundreds of frogs, and was full of crawdads….I mean really full of crawdads. I’ve yet to see a creek with more. The constant water temperature and other conditions must have been perfect for crawdads.

    When visiting Idaho last year, I took my 5-year-old boy to this creek thinking he would get a kick out of all the minnows, frogs, and crawdads. The creek had drastically changed, however. There were still a few minnows but, after searching for 90 minutes, we never found a single frog nor a single crawdad. They have disappeared from this creek. There were other changes too. The creek was choked with moss and algae. It used to be more rocky and, in slow deep pools, were patches of watercress. Now, now watercress and moss and algae coat all the rocks and even the muddy bottom and other than a few minnows, the creek is devoid of visible life.

    The change could be from nutrients from surrounding agricultural. The creek sprang from the ground but maybe fertilizers have percolated into the aquifer and now come up in the springs. The nutrients could be making the algae grow and the algae killed the frogs and crawdads. They were using fertilizers in the area in the 60’s, however, so I don’t know what has changed. Maybe it took forty years for the nutrients to make their way through the ground water to the spring??? Maybe the water temperature has changed??? Whatever changed, it was a big change.

    I watched a NOVA (PBS) program last night about chytrid epidemic that is killing frogs world wide. Some researchers in this NOVA program visited a stream in Panama and noted that it too was missing its frogs and was choked with algae. The algae, they said, was growing out of control because there were no tadpoles left to graze it down. I wondered if this is what happened to my warm springs creek. Maybe the chytrid fungus killed all the frogs so, with no tadpoles, the the algae is out of control and killed the crawdads.

    Does anyone know if chytrid is in Idaho wiping out all the frogs. This fungus is wiping frogs out world wide. See article.

    http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100418biologists_help_frogs_in_danger_get_leg_up/

    • Cutthroat Says:

      I had this near exact same experience attempting to show my young girls crawdads in Mink Creek, outside Pocatello a couple years ago(Ralphs stomping grounds). We scoured about 200 yds of creek bed near the old boy scout camp and didn’t see one where when I was a kid, in the late seventies, there were hundreds of big fat ones in this skinny creek. Overall, the creek itself didn’t appear to have changed much as far as algae, watercress and the like. I would be very interested to know what happened.

  12. Si'vet Says:

    As elk continue to thrive in Idaho, an agency (ID F&G) who greatly depends financially on tag sales, have found it neccessary to reduce elk controlled hunt opportunities again in 2010 by 1,125 permits / tags /opportunity’s/$$$.
    And this has nothing to do with the LoLo area, thats a seperate reduction. Yup, hunters are just a bunch of whiners.

  13. Richie, Giallanzo,NJ Says:

    I must say again it’s really all about cheap beef. Back in the sixties their might have been one or two fast hamburgers places.A&W was one and weston’s was anothe and a white tower here and their, that’s it. Now just see the difference, again cheap beef, more ranchers,that is the big problem.

    • Elk275 Says:

      Riche

      The population has gone from 140 million people in the mid 50’s to 310 million today and by 2050 it will be 300 million people. The higher the incomes the better food the populous is going to demand. Then lets not forget the taco shops that were not around in the 50’s and early 60’s.

      In the early 60’s when I was 12 or 13 a typical dinner our family might have had pork chops, mashed potato’s, green beans and apple sauce. We each got one thin pork chop, today go to Cosco and the pork chops are an 1 1/2 thick and from looking at the shopper’s waist line it appears that everyone gets at least 2 boneless chop plus a slice of their apple pie with a double scoop of ice cream.

      Bigger appetites, bigger waist lines and more industrial meat production but the number of ranchers has decreased every year.

  14. Nathan Hobbs Says:

    Someone photographed a Lynx in Yellowstone on April 17th according to the Yellowstone Association.
    picture here:

    • Elk275 Says:

      Was that this year or last year? Last year or the year before a concession worker was driving between Manmoth and Madison Junction and took a number of pictures. The facebook page says that this is one of the first ones seem for a long time

    • Save bears Says:

      Elk,

      There are actually quite a few people who have seen them over the years, I have seen lynx a couple of times in the park, but have not been able to photograph them, hence no verification..

      I do have to say, now a days, I can be suspect of just about any picture due to technology and the way it has evolved, I would be interested in hearing where this was taken. The last one I saw was close to the NE entrance to the park, and I now Dan Hartman, who lived in Cooke has seen them in the past around that area.

  15. Si'vet Says:

    Richie, am I reading your post correctly, “more ranchers”
    Would it be possible to get a link to the site that shows that increase.

  16. Save bears Says:

    Richie,

    MacDonalds started in the late 50’s A&W was around, if I remember correctly Burger King was started in the 60’s and Wendy’s came around about that time as well, White Castle has been around for way longer than any of them, in the west Burger Chef was started in the early 60’s. Dairy Queen with their Brazer Burgers has been around since at least the 50’s, Then throw in all of the little Mom & Pop drive ins, there have been a heck of a lot of burger joints around for a long time..

  17. Cindy Says:

    Oh the Lynx photograph is amazing! What a special day for those who caught a view. Now she should go back into the deep back country of Yellowstone and not be bothered. I do admit I’m glad to see the proof.

  18. Si'vet Says:

    PW,Cut, In those areas the long running lack of moisture (snowpack) may be a big player. The frogs, I’ve wondered how much affect the change in irrigation practices, center pivots vs the old flood irrigation, many center pivots are well fed instead hand lines fed from holding ponds. Another contributor may be the lack of insulating snow cover, even with the winters slightly warmer. But they have certainly disappeared. I was under the impression chytrid was a warmer region issue, maybe not.

  19. pointswest Says:

    Chytrid is also in cold climates. The NOVA program told about a frog in mountain lakes and meadows of Yosemite that is near extinction due to chytrid.

  20. pointswest Says:

    We are in for a big drought in the Yellowstone Region.

    Some drainages are less than 50% of average snowpack. Since a percentage of the snowpack seeps into the ground, spring runoff might be as low as 35% of averages or less. Some rivers might run dry. In 1977, a year with similar condition, Island Park Reservoir was completely drained by irregators and thunderstorms washed silt down the river and nearly destroyed the fishery in the Henry’s Fork. Fall River was nearly dry and the Fish & Game conducted a fish rescue program netting up trout stranded in stagnate pools in what was left of Fall River. The Teton was very low.

    This summer might be a repeat of 1977.

    Click the below link and scroll down to Western US — % Normal Basin Map for best overview. It might take a minute to download the map.

    http://www.id.nrcs.usda.gov/snow/data/current.html

    • Ralph Maughan Says:

      pointswest,

      Just as comparison. We have been exploring the Mojave Desert.

      Yesterday, driving on US Highway 6 between Bishop, Ca and Tonopah, NV, the desert was sodden. Walking off the highway was to step into desert turned into quicksand. Temporary lakes were pooling in the bottoms of most desert valleys.

      A week ago, visiting the hottest part of Death Valley, the area was completely covered with flowers.

  21. Si'vet Says:

    Nancy, I wanted to refrain from addressing your ealier post, but as “one of those”… I believe in several posts you’ve talked about elk, and other game in plain view of your den/sitting room, and I assume the reference October was to the negative affects of hunting. As a hunter I can look out my sitting room windows and never see a deer/elk/antelope. it’s not because I have bad eye sight, it’s because when I chose to build a home, I chose an area that’s not quite as scenic and “oh yes” not in the middle of deer and elk wintering grounds, which is what most groups whether they are pro wolf or anti wolf are continually trying to prevent, urban sprawl. So as a hunter who talked his wife out of building in the middle of scenic wildlife habitat, I find it a little confusing. Hunting disturbs wildlife for a few months, sprawl disturbs it year around.

    • JB Says:

      I worked for Tom Mangelsen for a short time after college in the Palo Alto gallery. He’s an amazing wildlife photographer, and a true conservationist.

  22. jon Says:

    This might have been posted before, but here goes again. It is a response from howlcolorado to Mark French. It is a great article.

    http://howlcolorado.org/2010/04/05/howlcolorado-response-to-mark-french-press-release/

  23. Michelle Says:

    An article I read about the bat die-off due to fungus.

    http://www.theday.com/article/20100421/NWS01/304219877/1018

    This is more of an East Coast issue at this point, and so may fall outside the usual purview of this website, but it’s pretty important, I think, and apparently spreading…

  24. Richie, Giallanzo,NJ Says:

    TO ELK 275;
    yes population was less, but people do not cook as much at home anymore. Plus everything is fast,fast,fast, and cheap, food is the ultimate,food is one of the cheapest products in America,what does that tell you ? I ate good as a kid,but it was mostly at home. Not too many fast food places when I was young,even white castle just opened when I was young. Now look at the way we raise chickens and cattle,all hormones,chickens are raised in two months instead of four. I ask is this healthy? I buy free range eggs and will start buying free ranch chickens. Think about it, cattle is hurting us all over the world. Brazil is the rainforest,tigers in India, Africa, farming is all over, but we still must respect our earth and wildlife.

  25. Cindy Says:

    Does anyone know if the lynx picture taken by someone attending a Yellowstone Association class?

    • Save bears Says:

      Actually I have heard posted around the net, that was taken a couple of years ago, so it would probably be best to email the association for clarification

  26. Cris Waller Says:

    Some hyperbole, hysteria, and just downright incorrect blatherng from Oregon-
    http://www.wallowacountychieftain.info/main.asp?SectionID=6&SubSectionID=6&ArticleID=21225

  27. Cindy Says:

    That’s exactly what I was wondering. Also, on yellowstone.net there are some pictures of Yellowstone taken on April 17 as well, but it looked like a clearer day. Now I do live in these parts and know that could be the case, overcast and snowing on this side of the street, sunshine on the other.

  28. WM Says:

    MI has now stated its intent to seek delisting of Great Lakes wolves, along with MN which filed its petition about a month ago. WI is still doing its legal review whether to file its own petition or piggyback on MN, which has special legal status of its wolves under the ESA and which are the exculsive source wolves which are repopulating WI.

    http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=45985

    • Moose Says:

      Great Lakes wolves are ready. There are very healthy pop.s in all three states, and each state has a reasonable plan to manage them. In Michigan, I believe there is a five year waiting period post-delisting, before the DNR can submit a hunting season.

  29. Si'vet Says:

    Richie, may I suggest when you transition to free range chickens you start by buying only one,make sure your knife is sharp. Several people I know who were making a stand, ended up pressure cooking there birds, or giving them the toss. I wonder what 10 billion chickens out free ranging would look and sound like, actually with double the finish time it would probably take 12 billion.

    • JimT Says:

      I don’t know where Richie lives, but there are free range chickens here, even in suburban Boulder County, but I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t have to coop them them to keep them. The coyotes and the foxes and eagles here would LOVE to see truly free ranging chickens run amok.;*)

  30. Nanc Says:

    Si’vet,

    The cabin I live in has been here for over 50 years. I’ve lived in it for close to 20. (Was able to make it and a couple of acres, my own about 3 years ago) Sadly the rest of the property was subdivided, which is happening all over the upper part of the valley.

    I’ve had a unique opportunity to watch elk, antelope and deer (and lots of other critters) move back and forth thru the valley. (Years ago in the fall, I use to watch elk migrate out towards Idaho, a steady stream of elk throughout the day)

    The ranch across from me didn’t allow hunting. But since then the ranches on either side have been locked in by one outfitter. I have no doubt the elk have figured out the safest place to be. But they had to moved out at some point and it wasn’t hard to see the orange vests rimming the area, waiting. There’s another small piece of land further down the road that also doesn’t allow hunting either and it was not unusual to see 100 head of elk bedded down during the day there.

    On that piece of property I witnessed for the first time, wolves doing what they normally do, hunting elk. It was short lived though – the next morning when I headed out to work, the WS plane barely missed my rig (talk about scary) as he came in for a short landing on the road. I heard later he had just shot a wolf. Wolves don’t last long around here.

    • Nathan Hobbs Says:

      If the plane landed on a roadway and nearly hit your car you have full reason to lodge a complaint with the FAA,at the very least they should have ground crew altering the flow of traffic and securing a safe landing area for the plane to land. Simply touching down on a roadway without warning to motorists using a roadway (whether paved or not) is inexcusable. Airports are for planes; roads are for cars.

  31. Richard Giallanzop,nj Says:

    To Si’vet;
    Bell & Evans are free range chickens and they are more expensive, and by the way they are very good to eat. By the way they look different AND have LESS FAT content, and taste better. Chickens in general are raised so fast that their bone structure cannot keep up with their flesh. It is more humane for animals anyway, with the eggs, the yolks are a little bigger than regular eggs.

  32. JimT Says:

    This story in the Boulder Daily Camera has generated some pretty strong reactions in the community. Given the discussions about needing to hunt to survive, the nature of big game outfitters, and trophies, I wondered what folks here thought of this?

    http://www.dailycamera.com/archivesearch/ci_14899346?IADID=Search-www.dailycamera.com-www.dailycamera.com

    • Elk275 Says:

      I was born in the wrong family, I need to be adopted in her family. Wow. To successfully take a grand slam of North American sheep cost a minimum of $100,000 to $125,000 with all of the accruements included. I am not impressed it is daddy’s money and what a surplus he has. I have a 1/2 of a grand slam Big Horn and Dall Sheep and that is the way it will remain unless I kill another Big Horn in one of Montana’s unlimited areas.

      I wanted to hunt the north country when I was young and I worked 7/12’s doing road construction in Yellowstone Park in 1972 and was able to go to Alaska and hunt caribou and moose for 28 days, but it was my money. I went to Africa at a young age and it was my money.

      I was born in the right family, I had to do it myself. But a least I was spared the 5 mile walk uphill each way every day to school in a snow storm. This is a very unimpressive story.

    • Ryan Says:

      They have the money, their family has made the choice to use it to go hunting. Big deal, the funds they spent all go back to the local communities and provide jobs, conservation monies, and value to the animal which makes it less likely to get poached.

    • Chris Harbin Says:

      Sara said: “”I fell in love with them when I took my first,” .
      This could come under the category “What a serial killer would say.”
      Before anyone gets wound up too tight, I don’t think she is a killer, serial or otherwise. If youthought this feeble attempt at humor was vicious, I apologize. Vicious no, sarcastic, maybe.

  33. JB Says:

    A must read article regarding cougars (from Conservation Magazine). Lots of provocative ideas here, including:

    “This question weighs heavily on the mind of Ben Maletzke, a WSU graduate student who is comparing cougar complaints from the heavily hunted and lightly hunted areas. His preliminary findings suggest that the heavily hunted area has five times as many complaints per capita, and eight times as many livestock predations, as the lightly hunted area—even though the density of cougars and livestock is about the same in both areas.”

    http://www.conservationmagazine.org/articles/v10n4/troubled-teens/

  34. Ryan Says:

    JB,

    I don’t see the correlation, since dogs and bait were banned in 96 in OR as well, complaints have gone up and any hunting take is mostly incidental instead of targeted. Big toms aren’t often killed, the take is mostly females and Juveniles. Yet the complaints are soaring. Observational data seems to go in direct conflict with the study.

    Any thoughts?

    • JB Says:

      Ryan,

      They discuss this in the article with people who, quite frankly, are more qualified than me. I would note that the graduate student (and study) I cited above compared areas with high hunting mortality (~25%) with low hunting mortality (~10%)–NOT zero mortality. I don’t think anyone was trying to make an anti-hunting argument, but rather, they are trying to figure out how hunting impacts lion-human conflicts. I suspect the relationship between hunting and such conflicts is not simple.

  35. Richard Giallanzop,nj Says:

    To Jim T ;
    Just a suggestion but free range could be in an enclosure, then a screened in barn,something they have these things in North and South Carolina. Montana has less than a million people, and I would assume plenty of room.

  36. jon Says:

    http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/live_news_detail.asp?id=3576

    Many other wolf biologists, however, supported the study and see sterilization as a more humane means of wildlife control.

  37. Cris Waller Says:

    “Cry Wolf”
    http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/general/columns/story?columnist=swan_james&id=5131109

    I am surprised that ESPN would post such a biased, inflammatory and downright fearmongering article.

  38. Save bears Says:

    This article has nothing to do with wolves, elk, cows, grouse or anything we normally talk about on this blog, but I did find it very interesting and am sorry to see an end of an era..

    http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/04/23/1164899/death-of-caveman-ends-an-era-in.html

    • WM Says:

      SB,

      Great story, and a reminder that self-sufficiency is not a bad thing. I expect many who post here have seen the PBS program on Richard Proennke, “Alone in the Wilderness.” His level of self-sufficiency, living alone while demonstrating master carpentry and survival skills in one of the harshest climates in North America, was second to none.

      Of course, we can’t all live this lifestyle, but when we lose touchstones like this, it is a bit sad – especially someone from the “Greatest Generation.”

      That being said, there are still 1.6 billion people on this earth who live without electricity, while we in America, and elsewhere sit, watching, listening or fingering away on our electronic gadgets.

  39. Richard Giallanzop,nj Says:

    To save bears and all;
    Read the history on Mc donalds and when they started, it was early sixties, they were not in Staten Island or in Brooklyn. Again most people ate at home guys, fsat food was not a big deal. Will you guys agree to this ? Now a- days two people must work, not like the old days. So in esssance more fast food places,and do not tell me no, they are on every street corner now a-days. Again guys cheap beef,and I will not read that article by espn,the big bad wolf. Won’t this every change ? Beautiful animals being killed,every picture whear I see a big animal killed by a hunter or a BLM giuy, the guy is always has a smile, bull, this is disgusting to me period.

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      The first McDonald’s restaurant was started in 1940 in CA and Ray Kroc, founded the McDonald’s corporation in 1955, do some google searches, the information is out there, including the history of McDonald’s located on their own website.

    • Save bears Says:

      Also,

      Even though I am a meat hunter, I always have a smile on my face at the successful completion of a hunt, pay due respect to the animal and happy because I know the freezer will be full, but again, I smile when I am successful..

  40. Save bears Says:

    Richie,

    McDonald’s was incorporated in 1955..By Ray Kroc

    http://www.mcdonalds.com.hk/english/about/index.htm

    But in truth, the McDonald’s restaurant was founded in 1940, in San Bernadino, CA by Richard and Maurice McDonald

  41. Jamie Archer Says:

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/24/mears.sartore.qanda/index.html?hpt=C2

    This is a story on CNN about Nat Geo photographer Joel Sartore and his efforts to inform people about rapidly disappearing species.

  42. Nancy Says:

    Cris, this has been on going for more than a few months now in the Big Hole area:

    “The other key tool will be the upcoming hunting season. Sime said biologists are recommending smaller districts than the three last year to better focus the kills in areas where they want to bring wolf numbers down. And the quota will likely be higher statewide this year. Biologists are hoping hunters will over time replace the management actions needed by federal trappers”

    Kill the established pack off (rather than work with non-lethal applications) and other packs move right into that location. Its a sorry, sorry circle and we taxpayers are paying for it everytime because of their lack of understanding when it comes to living with predators.

  43. Nancy Says:

    Nathan,

    Regarding fixed aircraft landing on roads, you obviously don’t live in rural Montana. It happens frequently out here.

  44. Peter Kiermeir Says:

    A nice, plain and harmless story: Five stork pairs dazzle bird lovers by nesting in same crane.
    http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100425-26775.html

  45. JEFF E Says:

    http://www.fullbooks.com/Hunting-the-Grisly-and-Other-Sketches3.html

    Teddy Roosevelt on wolves.
    looks to me like he is saying the wolves throughout the rockies were pretty much the same size then as now

  46. Save bears Says:

    Interesting read, thanks for posting it…I have read parts of it in the past, but it has been a long time ago..

  47. Kropotkin Man Says:

    This is an interesting event. There’s also been a recent photo taken of an ocelot further south in AZ.

    Globe is considered to be central AZ.

    http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/NewsMedia/Arizona-Game-and-Fish-collects-ocelot-found-dead-near-Globe.shtml

  48. Si'vet Says:

    I know we have discussed many issues on this site with regards to elk / elk numbers, RMEF, F&G, enviromental groups and how both sides can have a slant to it. We also talked about, the changes in habitat, changes in methods, changes in transportation, changes in human population on and on, and then the “good old days”. I wanted to know what were the good old days. We can all argue about who’s right on elk population numbers, but every year, thousands of hunters go out and scour most of the state in search of elk, so I think hunter succes rate is a pretty good indicator in the long run of where elk populations are vs human populations. From the information I gathered, and my calculations, the good old days 1947-1977, the hunter succes was 0.4% less than 1977-2007. I think this may show that many non profit organizations, and the F&G have done a pretty good job of helping elk hold there own in the ever expanding loss of habitat etc. PS: I don’t know how he did it, but elk populations really suffered during the Nixon administration.

    • Jeremy B. Says:

      Si’vet:

      This is a great point, and one that I’ve discussed more than a few times with academics and managers. Here in the Midwest we’ve had a whole generation of people that have grown up with extremely high WT deer populations. Now many wildlife managers want to reduce populations (some to focus on QDM). What happens when a generation of people used to easy pickin’s sees a significant reduction in the population? My guess is, even if the bucks get bigger, the managers are going to hear a lot of complaining.

  49. Si'vet Says:

    Forgot to add, this is for Idaho only.

  50. Mike Says:

    http://www.missoulian.com/news/local/article_c0d6b622-51bc-11df-aeb5-001cc4c002e0.html

    Glacier “updates” their bear plans after Two Medicine grizz family tragedy in 2009.

    Anyone have any meat on this or is it just a rebranding of terminology?

  51. Cody Coyote Says:

    Two adult male grizzlies were apparently trapped north of Jackson Hole and relocated to the North Fork of the Shoshone River at Yellowstone’ s East Entrance grizzly corridor last week ( interesting choice of drop point…it’s already saturated with bears thereabouts ). The bears were trapped for killing cattle.

    I live in Cody WY and I found this obscure story in a Victoria, Texas online paper not known for breaking much wildlife news. Go figure…

    They have been publishing since the Mexican War , though. ( 1846 )

    http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/apr/27/bc-wy-bears-moved/?features&travel

  52. Elk275 Says:

    There is an article in today’s New York Times about the: “Once feared extinct, the giant Palouse earthworm, reputed to grow up to three feet long and smell like lilies, has been found alive. ”

    I do not know how to get a link from the New Times but it is under the science section. This was talked about some months ago.

    • Save bears Says:

      Actually,

      We had this very discussion a few months ago, if I remember right it was published in one of the Idaho papers, interesting stuff. Had several comments by the last scientist to find one alive..

    • Elk275 Says:

      This are new worms found since we talked about it.

    • Save bears Says:

      Really,

      That would be cool, I will have to read the article to see what is going on..thanks for posting it.

  53. David Says:

    Here’s an article from the Washington Post on censusing Grizzlies from hair rubs. There’s evidence there’s more out there than was thought. The political implications come about half way through it.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042702379_2.html?hpid=artslot

  54. WM Says:

    WI joins MN and MI in requesting delisting of Great Lakes wolves.

    http://www.northlandsnewscenter.com/news/local/92244999.html

  55. Virginia Says:

    Please read RLMiller’s “Hike On” article on Dailykos regarding the forest revision plan for the Coronado National Forest in southeastern Arizona. Also, please comment to the forest service to help convince them to protect this treasure called the “Sky Islands.” RL provides information and a way to contact them to comment on the plan.

  56. Barb Rupers Says:

    Judge Molloy to listen to arguements on June 15, 2010.

    http://missoulian.com/news/local/article_4951d04a-5280-11df-9b48-001cc4c03286.html

  57. WM Says:

    For those interested in what is going on with the Great Lakes wolves, here is the WI petition to remove their population of wolves moving in from MN, just filed with Dept. of Interior yesterday. Interesting that they file their OWN petition as well as JOIN in the separate petition filed by MN. MI also filed its own petition last week.

    http://dnr.wi.gov/org/caer/ce/news/pdf/Wolf-Petition-Signed-4-27-10.pdf

  58. RLMiller Says:

    ConocoPhillips relinquishing rights to oil & gas leases west of/adjacent to Glacier Nat’l Park http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/04/report-conocophillips-releases-oil-and-gas-leases-near-glacier-national-park5786

    • Virginia Says:

      RLMiller – please continue to share these stories with all of us as well as with those of us who read Dailykos. You find the news stories that are not always on the front page! Thanks for your efforts.

  59. Nancy Says:

    I’m sure everyone knows about this but just in case:

    A presentation titled “Wolf Introduction is a Criminal Enterprise Based on Scientific Fraud.” May 15, 1-3 pm, at Bozeman’s Gran Tree Inn. The event is sponsored by Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd.

  60. Richard Giallanzop,nj Says:

    To Jon;
    I would like to thank you for your position on saving our wolves and bears in our wild places. The article you addressed are strong positions on saving our animals,not just killing, to control their numbers. Makes no sense to me, to in introduce them back,then kill them off again.We should not play God,and take things in our own hands like killing for control.We must give back respectvely, to nature, what God has given us. When I see a picture of a dead animal ,and the hunter,the hunter is always smiling.Whether a IDF&G or BLM person or just a hunter, always with a smile.They enjoy the kill, beats me,but to each his own. I do not believe in taking the life of an animal ,hunting for food yes,not for fun.

  61. Ryan Says:

    http://www.mtstandard.com/news/local/article_a2d65ecb-6b54-5690-aa63-6278ba076540.html

    The fiasco continues.. BTW John was found not guilty in his first trial.

  62. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    How does somebody who only wants to take pictures, put up with the bloodthirsty killing, done in the name of sport. Again they are all smiling,wow what a happy bunch,with a picture taken with a dead animal.When somebody puts their or cat down,somebody should take a picture and see if they are smiling. Montana is beautiful,but I really do not know.

    • Elk275 Says:

      Richard you live in New Jersey and I live in Montana, now I do not concern my self with what goes on in New Jersey why should you concern your self with what goes on in Montana. By the way mountian sheep is the best eating of all wild game. Why I am thinking about it, it is time to put in for my moose, goat and mountain sheep tag which is due on May 1st.

    • Ryan Says:

      Of course you don’t know, because you have no expirience with it. Thats the problem. I will take the state rights side, I, unlike many, don’t feel that I have right to say shit about what happens in New Jersy because I don’t know what happens there well enough to have an informed opinion, and I wish that same mentality would be taken with what happens in my state.

      Instead people with no clue run their mouth heels about things they have no clue about.

    • Ryan Says:

      Also why don’t you try reading the article, you know the words and not just look at the picture, then do some research and add something valuable to to discussion. That’d probably help too.

  63. Save bears Says:

    See the Key is Richie,

    Yes, Montana is a beautiful place and you don’t know! You look at it from a completely different perspective than those in Montana…Just as they look at NJ from a completely different perspective than you do…

    And I am not falling in the trap of you don’t have a right to say anything because you don’t live there, when it comes to public lands all American have a right to state their opinions…

    By the way, I also smile when I take an animal at the end of a successful hunt, I smile because I know my freezer will be full for the next year, not because I Killed an animal, I pay all due respect to the animal and thank it for its sacrifice to my family and friends…but I m still happy when I am successfull

  64. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Ryan and save bears;
    Save bears I do not be grudge you for food, you seem to have respect for life. Ryan what don’t you understand, I do not like taking the life of a beautiful animal for sport, that’s it,watch deer hunter, and see the message at the end,it’s all about life. We have marine life here, you have beautiful wildlife there, woodland wildlife. This is amazing to be, gline understood where I was coming from. I love animal life, the only to species that cannot protect itself from mankind are babies and animals. You guys have planes,snowmobiles,all kinds of machines to kill be predators. Shit man, what do they have,I wish the tables were turned, you bet I do.All you guys in the pictures smiling, do it with a knife like the indians did,yea right, most of you would not stand a chance. Read the book Yellow Wolf, a Nez Perce warrior, Nez Perce last stand.Chief Joseph was a chief protecting women and children,yellow wolf was a fighter, and see what he had to say about the American soldier, again give me a break. Mountain men had the most guts of the new people of the west.

    • Elk275 Says:

      God Bless the webmaster Ralph, he has patience.

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      The Native Americans, took every single advantage they could in feeding their people, they had stone knives, then they had bows and arrows, spears, horses, then they acquired guns, they took every single advantage they could to feed their people, they were happy when they got game, The plains people rejoiced when they had a successful hunt! As with any other predator, they take every singe advantage they can to assure food and more comfortable lives!

      You keep focusing on the small amount of hunters that hunt for sport, when the majority of us, use the meat we take for food! It is against the law to waste the meat! When are people going to understand, the majority of hunters don’t leave the meat to waste away..

      Now on another point, I have read in the last couple of days, even if a wolf kills excess animals, the animals do not go to waste, other animals eat the meat, why would you think just because it is killed by a human, the meat would not be eaten by other animals? And that is not to say, I even accept leaving meat on the ground, but it is the same premise? If it is left, then it is going to be used…

    • Save bears Says:

      Now if we really want to look at Native Americans and their hunting strategies, I can take you to over 20 different sites, that are call buffalo jumps, these are areas, where they herded or chased whole herds of wild bison over cliffs, and then took what they wanted, it was indiscriminate killing, because they did not take it all, but the environment benefited, because other animals were able to pick up what was left, wolves, coyotes, badgers, wolverines, etc. benefited because of excess killing by the Native Americans..

    • Ryan Says:

      I am dumbfounded at this point, you obiviously didn’t read the article and instead are fascinated by pictures. I guess that would explain alot.

    • bob jackson Says:

      save bears,

      The archaeological records “show” buffalo jumps were used for putting matriarchal components of bison families over the edge. Mostly it was 20-30 or 40 animals at a time. And mostly it was the non savvy spin off satellite groups, not the core power group matriarchal components.

      I said matriarchal, because one can not chase bulls in a straight line. They veer off no matter what. Thus during the rut when both male and female components were together very few buffalo went over jumps. and out of the rut bull groups were not put over then either. They got a free pass by the Indians.

      Also a jumps continued success depended on a location where herds grazed up near the jump site. This is because bison always go BACK to safety. Thus if a herd came in from an opposite direction they could not be steered to the jump in the direction they had yet to go..

      Conditions had to be RIGHT to have success. Many of the famous jumps would have spans of over one hundred years between herds going over.

      Now if you were an Indian hunter and scout what you did was watch for a power group going up this slope. Then you went, “oh boy”. Not because you were all going to get that group. You left this group alone. You went back and gathered everybody up and about that time a satellite matriarchal group was moseying up the same incline (2 hrs. to two days later).

      Then you waited till the power group moved off the plateau ….. and then it was time to do the hunter thing every indian-bison enthusiast reads and talks about, move in on the young and dumb sitting ducks.

      Save bears, read the ages, sex and numbers of animals each event at these jumps. There are exceptions where a hundred animals (power group and newly spin off and still dependent….sucking at the teat…. satellite group were all together, but this is far between happenings.

      Of course, the white buffalo hunters looked for the same spin off satellite groups to make a “stand” on also. Now modern hunters…if I must call them that…just blaze away. They are so embrionic compared to savvy hunter – gatherers. At least they knew what a herd was composed of.

      Now, a buffalo jump hunt is not the same thing as a STAMPEDE. Maybe you are thinking of this event. I think of the purpose of a stampede just about every day. I know why it happens in dysfunctional human populations …. so it is probably the same thing in herd animals of today. But every happening repeating itself in nature has a plus reason for that species.

      Tell me, what do you think the purpose of a stampede is, those of you “who are so wise in the way of science” (Monty Python)? Hint…you won’t find much in the books unless it is by some ignorant researcher who just thinks animals are dumb….and of course this person is not the one to look to for answers. I guess it is the same for how bison could be “chased” off cliffs.

    • Save bears Says:

      Bob,

      Thanks for you ever enlightening narration, you never fail to amaze…

    • bob jackson Says:

      Save bears,

      Thank you. Yes, I wanted to keep it simple so as not to confuse. Bison 406 would describe how the Indians would know WHEN the power group was going to move off. It would be within 15-20 minutes of when the old matriarchs got up and returned to the power group …. after visiting with the youngens a couple hundred yards off. I say “got up” because that is how bison family relatives visit. They meet and then lay down …sort of like how people vist and then sit down on the lazy boys and couches.

      Now if we go on to the masters program we see how a mother will “talk” with her maturing son who wants to go off with his buds to become a “man”. She leaves the herd and then her and her son stay about equal distance from both groups…40-50 matriarchal components and maybe 6-8 older bulls waiting like kind 2-400 yds away. A talk may take 15 minutes then the mother and the son simutaneously turn towards where they want to go. Except mother walks back and son gives it a run. When he gets to the bud group only then do they all go off together.

      Touching, I know but true in my herd and true in the Mt. bison of Pelican Valley.

      Anyone for the PHD program? No, I doubt it.

    • WM Says:

      Bob Jackson,

      Did I miss the explanation for the “purpose of a stampede” because I was sleeping in class, or are you still awaiting an answer from an eager student?

      I gather a stampede is usually caused by some external stimulus that triggers a flight response away from the stimulus, causing one or more animals to run, in turn getting the group to run. How they decide which direction to continue, or when to stop, seems like it might come from matriarchal leader upon which the others que. Bulls, at the flanks,

      Am I even close, Bob?

    • bob jackson Says:

      WM,

      I just watched that Cohen Brothers cult movie, A Serious Man, so it is probably better I didn’t answer just now. Otherwise I’d have to say the answer has to do with rabbits…and how it relates to math and then buffalo.

      Actually, to say a bit, a lot of functional stampedes probably had to do with vital life. Doubt you could have a stampede with fogey bulls and pot bellied cows. It is the youngens that keep it going….and going…and going. To them it must have been a lot of fun.

      In Yellowstones back country most of my travel was with pack hores tagging along. It got kinda dull for everyone concerned (my riding horse, my pack animal and me). Times slowed even further and heads kept nodding.

      So what I did was take the boys..and me…for a “spin” every couple weeks. Nothing in the saddle bags, no rifle and no pack saddle…or even a halter for the pack animal. not even a ranger hat. Then it was out on the miles long flats of the Thorofare-Yellowstone confluence valley.
      Well it wasn’t quite flat and there was a willow or badger hole here and there…but what the heck, go for it, right?

      We all knew what this ride was all about, flat out, reins going over the top and the pack horse up the butt eating the dust. Everyones spirits rose for another week after this and instead of going 2 1/2 miles per hour on the trail it was a good 3 to 3 1/2 MPH.

      But what if I got hurt, or my horses did…so far back in? Well I guess the answer is in the rabbits….and math? At least tonight.

    • WM Says:

      Bob Jackson,

      If you are just saying buffalo sometimes “stampede” just for the heck of it, to break the monotony of life, “blow out the pipes” so to speak, or get the blood flowing, I can go with that. Makes sense to me. Some behavioral ecologist will probably also say it serves as practice for when you need to do it for real – just a little workout.

  65. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To all;
    That ram was beautiful,I mea n beautiful,why could not it die with respect of being old, then take it if you is old and it’s best days are behind the poor animal. Don’t let it suffer a harsh winter,that’s the way I see it. Again it’s all about respect for the animal and the life and the beauty it gives to the landscape. I do not expect you guys to understand this.

  66. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    take it if you must, when it is old

  67. Elk275 Says:

    That ram is approximately 7 to 8 years old which is about 4 to 5 years less than the rams of Banff National Park and will not get any older. The rams of the Missouri Breaks only reach 7 or 8 years and are less than 5 points from a world record. In Banff the rams are 12 to 14 years of age before getting that big.

  68. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To all you hunters elk to;
    What ever you believe in I think I said it all in the other thoughts of mine I love wildlife otters,birds,dolphins,whales, bears, sheep, buffalo,coyotes, and mostly wolves the most cunning of all. Oh elephants,tigers, lions, and gorialls,chimps. I said this before the second most illegal trade behind drugs is the animal trade. What does this tell you guys?

    • Save bears Says:

      What does it tell us guys?

      That you live in a different world than many of us do..

    • cobra Says:

      RG,
      Most true sportsmen love and respect the game as much or even probably more than most. As some others have said since you have not grown up in this lifestyle you will never now how we truly feel about the animals we hunt and enjoy seeing while hunting.

    • Ryan Says:

      Save Bears,

      Its a valuable example of why one should not do drugs.

    • WM Says:

      Ryan, SB,

      Wasn’t there a song many years ago about the “wildwood weed” and the singer going on about wandering around interacting “with all the little animals?” Wish I could remember the lyrics.

    • WM Says:

      Found it! “Wild wood weed” by Jim Stafford

  69. Si'vet Says:

    SB,WM,Ryan, you’ve stepped in it now, accusing someone of burning one.
    You know Hebgen Lake is close to YNP. For some stupid reason I and several old buddy’s ice fish it every year. We use to rough it, now we stay in West Yellowstone. several years ago after a particularly cold,windy, fishless day, we headed back to West, for food and drink. The place we settled into was pretty busy, so we shared the table with 3 younger fellows. Apparently they had just finished their stint with the BFC and were going to drive to idaho falls id. and fly out the next afternoon. My one buddy played a little naive and prompted them to talk about their BFC adventure, they went on and on, mostly proud of the problems they had caused the agency, and I don’t recall which one they sited. After a few drinks, my friend went to the restroom, one of the BFC’s finest also went, while powdering their noses the buffalo whisper went on about how they had run out of smoke about half way thru there stint, and if Mark knew where they could come up with some. My favorite part, later Mark my buddy a detective, who is tight as a tick, reached over and picked up the tab, and when he opened his wallet, to get his card, there for all to see was his detectives shield (badge), things got quiet in a hurry. And the 3 buffalo herders just melted away. So when someone brings up the BFC, it always brings a smile to my face. Short story long I made a comment about the BFC in this regards and it drew rath from a poster.

    • Save bears Says:

      Si’vet,

      I really have no idea of what you are talking about. I really don’t know where or why this thread took a turn that way..I know I was not accusing anyone of doing drugs…in fact I was getting confuse, because I was not even thinking of drugs…

      Hebgen has some great fishing, I have done that quite a few times, enjoyed it quite a bit..

    • Save bears Says:

      I guess after 50 plus years in this life, I still live a very naive life…

    • WM Says:

      SB,

      My fault for turning the thead, I guess. I was just trying to add a little levity. The string began with Richie referring drugs; your reply that Richie lives in a different world (reply to his little animals reference); Ryan’s exclamation why people shouldn’t do drugs…. and then my reference to what I thought was a very cute, funny song from the late 70’s by a humor ballad singer (it was actually written in 1962). Sorry the youtube imbed link doesn’t work. The song is a kick and a harkening back to a more innocent time.

    • Save bears Says:

      WM,

      It really was not a big deal, I was just a bit confused, I guess I didn’t read and digest the way some others did is all, I admit, after being in the Military as an Officer and then going into the Science field, my mind probably works a bit differently than many!

      LOL

  70. Peter Kiermeir Says:

    Thus we had a “Sweden” thread here in January, I think it´s “cold” so here is what I found over on the TWIN Pages. http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/wolfnews.htm
    News articles about a large scale poaching network, “hunting” by mans of wolf poisoning, death treats against officials, etc. etc. etc. Wild West in the Swedish woods…….. the Swedes seem already even more radical than the Norwegians. And I considered buying a Volvo :-))

  71. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To save bears;
    Why do you give me a hard time, the American indians did not have the machines you guys have, plan and simple. They were more skilled than you guys period. Read what yellow wolf had to say in his book, then get back to me, read the book.Look what is going on in the gulf, and the miners, I am an environmental person that is it man. I am for the animal, and the eco system, the wolf usually does not kill just to kill. They come back for their kill if they cannot finish it in one sitting. Ralph I am sorry, I really should have known what I started.

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      I hunt with a long bow, no ATV.

      As to why you get a hard time, is because you give others a hard time, you can’t accept that others have a different view of things than you do, your always telling everybody you don’t care…what they say…if your going to give, you should be willing to get back in kind..

    • Save bears Says:

      See you make the statement, they were more skilled than us. THEN add period, of course you make that statement, not knowing any one of us.

    • Ryan Says:

      Richie,

      The indians have them now, and they use them. Spotlights hunting at night with high powered rifles. Want to see alot of clear cuts, go to a rez in washington. Want to see gill nets indiscriminately destroying ESA listed salmon runs, go to the columbia or any of the washington rivers and watch the indians do it.

    • WM Says:

      Richie,

      At the risk of giving the appearance of a dogpile on you, I want to offer you an opportunity to educate yourself. If you believe American Indians did it all, did it right and had easy lives because of their superior skills, let me offer you some reality reading. Stephen Ambrose wrote a book (1996), “Undaunted Courage” which was a historical account in the form of a detailed, nearly day by day, summary of the Lewis & Clark Expedition journals. Many different tribes were encountered along the way in both directions from St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, and back. Many tribes had never seen white men, others just a few. Some tribes were more successful than others at staying fed and protecting themselves from their enemies; nearly all were territorial protecting against other tribal intruders. Not all were honest, and even took advantage of L&C (trading them bad horses for exhorbitant exchange knowing they had little choice but to accept; nearly abandoning them at critical times; not being able to feed even themselves on their journey – relying heavily on the L&C hunters; yearning for the technology like steel knives, mirrors, guns, etc; and several even contemplated killing expedition members to get these items, which might have happened if not for fortuitous events and expert communications skills involving multiple interpreters {yes, Sacajewea, although important to the success of the journey, was only one of several, contrary to stories that are told).

      The plight of Chief Joseph’ s Nez Perce in the 1870’s, at the hands of General Howard, is indeed a sad and inspiring story.

      Back to technology: Richie, comparing history and Indians, with whatever goes on today is a bit disengenuous. Different times with different expectations for nearly all involved. The fact that someone like SB hunts with a long bow sometimes, no doubt in bow season, or, I, who used to hunt with a recurve bow for years, suggest a desire to rely more on skill than technology, and in my own case it was a very specific desire to improve my hunting skills.

      If you have any illusion that modern day Indians, whatever the tribe, have no desire to use technology to increase their success in taking deer, elk or salmon, you are not aware of the facts. Ryan gives a great example of ESA protected salmon (my own is borderline native winter steelhead in certain rivers) winding up in Indian nets that take whatever cannot get around or through them. This, of course, under legal treaty rights, even though the sustainability of certain fish runs might be in jeopardy for eternity. It is complex stuff, dear boy. I am afraid you do not fully understand the basic facts, the issues or the players.

  72. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To save bears;
    What does this tell you guys;
    Just answer the real questions! I ONLY GET THIS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FROM YOU SO CALLED HUNTERS, WITH ALL THE MACHINES. p.s. I AM GLAD YOU DOIT FOR FOOD AND NOT FOR TROPHIES.

  73. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    I know about the buffalo hunt over the cliffs!

  74. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To cobra ;
    Did I say all, I hope you rspect the animals, I just don’t like killing for sport,eating food yes not sport,one more time.

    • jon Says:

      Agreed 100% Richard. I was raised under the impression that if you like animals and respect them, you usually don’t kill them. You let them keep their lives. Animals hunted for food purposes are obviously excluded from this, but I find it very hard to believe that sport hunters who use hounds to chase and exhaust mountain lions up trees only to shoot them actually care or have respect for the animal whose life they took away for sport or just to hang its head on their trophy wall.

  75. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Ryan;
    I went through the entire article,that is not my point.

  76. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Bob Jackson;
    Thanks, really I enjoy when you write, you really tell a great deal of well worth facts.

  77. Si'vet Says:

    SB, sorry no offense, to you. In fact my only point was. I’m sure the BFC is a dedicated group many of whom are professionals, but as in all groups there are a few individuals that can give the rest of the group a black eye by the things they say and do and then the group get’s sterotyped by some. Similar to the comments posted here everytime some game thief, low life kills/steals wildlife. Pratically everyone who hunts get lumped in with them. to me that’s “fubar”.

    • Virginia Says:

      The only stereotyping I have read here has been by you.

    • Save bears Says:

      I beg to differ Virginia, there has been quite a bit of stereotyping by both sides over the last few years…

    • JEFF E Says:

      Si’vet,
      a question, when you first was looking over this blog did you think we were some sort of connected group or club?
      Reason I ask is I have a problem with designating people who participate on this blog (or any blog) as “the group”. that is simply a miss-characterization. What a blog consists of is simply an advancement of opinions on one or more subjects, sometimes with supporting material, nothing more.
      Obviously the regular posters on this blog represent the spectrum of thinking on most subjects. (sorry pope gregory, you don’t get to spew you HS here), and certainly we don’t all see eye to eye or even necessarily like each other. We are not a group, but rather represent the spectrum of individuals nationally, and internationally in some cases, and bring the corresponding range of viewpoints to the table. That’s a good thing. I believe you have been experiencing the antithesis’s of that recently.

  78. Ralph Maughan Says:

    Matt Skoglund,

    What a great response!

    I meant to write one on this ESPN scare story, but didn’t have time. Yours is better than I would have been able.

  79. Si'vet Says:

    Virginia, your right I am the only one here that sterotypes. Thanks you’ve my day, it started out a little rugged, but your comment has put a smile on my face. I owe you a grin.

  80. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To save bars;
    I wish you would address rhe points Ib have made,instead on not reading what I write. For the 10th time I have no problem hunting for food I do not like trophy hunting for animals, my opinion.As for bow hunting I said nothing against that,again I do not like trophy hunting,taking a life for a trophy,you do fine,I don’t. I don’t have to take a life,and get a trophy for doing so. Giving pain to a wild creature is not my idea of fun. You can critize me all you want,but address my points!

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      I have just read back through all of your statements and I don’t see where you have directed any questions to me, treat as if I am stupid and plainly list your questions and I will be happy to give the answers I can…Your broken style of typing makes it difficult to really know if you are asking a question..plainly line your points out…

    • Save bears Says:

      And Richie,

      I am not criticizing you, I am disagreeing with you, I have a different view of things than you do, because you label someone a “Trophy hunter” does not mean the meat goes to waste, the majority of people I know that hunt trophies including Mt. Lions and Bears EAT the meat, why is that so hard to understand? As far as wolves, I will agree, I don’t know anyone hunting them for the meat, I won’t hunt wolves, have never and don’t have any intention to..

    • jon Says:

      Sorry savebears, but I have a problem with trophy hunters who hunt predators with hounds and bait and taking pictures of themselves while they are grinning with a smile while standing over the dead animal’s lifeless body. Also, eating a mt. lion and bear doesn’t sit well with me. It is the intent of the hunt that bothers some. I doubt most hunters hunt mt. lions to eat them. Just because the meat may not be wasted does not mean people are going to like it. They hunt them because they feel it’s a sport and because they want the trophy. I myself would never eat a predatory animal. It just doesn’t sit well with me.

    • Ryan Says:

      Jon,

      Both bear and Cat eat quite well. (I’ve had both) I hunt bears spot and stalk, and have got to tag along on depredation cat hunts with hounds. (goverment contracted agent taking out problem cats) I think if you actually went on a cat hunt with dogs, your position probably wouldn’t be as strong.

    • Save bears Says:

      Jon,

      I have no problem with it not sitting well with you, that is your choice and your feelings, but understand, others have their choice and their feelings in this matter as well, cat is quite good and some of the best roasts I have ever had was bear roast, of course I am not a dog eater, but I have had dog as well, which in many parts of the world is considered a top notch meal, when I was in the army, I often times ate meals that I would not even ask what it was, but I am still here and most of the times it was quite good..

      My point is, I am happy when I take an animal, I don’t condone wasting any meat if you have hunted it, and the majority of the so called “trophy hunters” don’t waste the meat…they take it home and eat it…

  81. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    criticize ,sorry

  82. JEFF E Says:

    now for this commercial break

    sorry, have johnny on my mind today

  83. Save bears Says:

    Wow Jeff,

    That is quite a URL! Yikes!!

  84. JEFF E Says:

    meant Bob. see what working 12 hour days does to ya

  85. Si'vet Says:

    Jeff, I not sure what I expected, my real first impression was, there were comments made here about people, organizations and activities made by posters who’s comments were just negative slams , and the follow up comments usually supported the negative comments, so in essence I thought of most of the posters here as a group, for lack of a better term. If you make a comment in contradiction to the ones mostly supported here then it hit’s the fan, and the attack begins. And after a while going on the attack seems to be the norm, by bothsides, me included. It just seems after awhile instead of really reading and trying to understand the message, we’re in the mode of “ready shoot aim”. I have tried not to change others, but I am going to share my opinions, and sometimes I can’t help but add a little levity. I feel no impulse to apologze for being a hunter who tries to kill the biggest, most elusive of species I am currently pursuing,(trophy) with minimal success. And the prep and practice is all part of the enjoyment. Unlike some, whom I don’t judge, I use the very best, up to date equipment as far as guns/an archery equip. When I touch that realease or trigger, I want the end to be as quick and lethal as possible, and I do it at short range, to help insure it. And because the areas I hunt are not ATV accessable, I bone out my game and utilize every ounce, nothing hangs and dries. Do I have to have the meat to survive, hell no, do I enjoy it more than anything that comes from the store hell yes. Jeff thanks for the heads up, gives me something to ponder today, I’m hiking along the Snake River bottoms the rest of the day, geese are hatching, Herons nesting, moose are scraggley, great time to be out.

  86. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To wm;
    Well you wrote one sentence on nez perce,did you read their books? The battles,read the salmon river one, when they were ambushed, genus I tell you. Educate yourself on that one, I will not do it for you. Now L&C was saved by the Nez Perce at the end of their trip, only to be tracked down by this government years later,wow how ironic isn’t it. You will find in indian and our culture, sad story after story, how this government brought their way of life to an end. All the buffalo that were killed to cut off their food supply. Find out how germ warfare started, or asked sb he should know. Yes your correct, the indians learned from us,why they build casino’s now, so they are exploiting our society, they learned how to take greed, and turn it around.

    • Save bears Says:

      You just keep taking those stabs don’t you Richie, I am very familiar with the destruction of the Native American cultures and have vehemently disagreed with those policies all of my life..

      Richie, you seem to have a very difficult time when people question or disagree or even have different knowledge than you on subjects.. you have to remember, there is a lot of people in this country and even those with similar views on subjects often times will disagree in method or desired outcome…

  87. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To all;
    Have I not said to each his own,I don’t like it,but again to each his own.

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      Yes you have, I will give that to you, but why do you expect that when you make statements on a blog that is available to the public that others would not question or respond to your comments.

      In the blog world we all expect to be addressed after we make comments, that is the whole premise behind the idea of a more open blog, discussion, information and yes sometimes even arguments..

      I as well as others think Ralph does a great job, people are able to post their views, their information and sometimes their rhetoric, but I don’t understand, why anyone would not expect to be questioned or even proven wrong when other information is more accurate…you make statements in the absolute but seem to get really upset when someone disagrees or even refutes those opinions..

      Debate is good, but only when both sides know their issues and are willing to accept that others are not going to always agree with them…

  88. Mike Says:

    Here are some very close photos I took in Glacier National Park of a huge grizzly bear family. This was October 2009 in a blizzard. Some of you may enjoy these. This female had three cubs:

    http://www.parkcamper.com/Glacier-National-Park/Glacier-grizzly-bears.htm

  89. Nancy Says:

    Nice shots Mike!

  90. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To sb;
    Maybe your correct,but I do say to each his own, or did you not read that! O.K. you hunt for food good. I did not say anything to that, I just do not like trophy hunts, that is what I believe. You are a great guy,but many times you do not address the entire idea. At times you hunters talked down to people,that is not a nice to do. Like you must educate me,come on man, say it a better way than that.Not you but sevat,Ryan, but you do have a habit of talking down to us, on the other side. I still respect you of all the others on the other side, wm is a nice guy too! All of you I am sure are nice people,or I would not trade idea’s! Just do not talk down to people!

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      I acknowledge I read that in the last message I posted to you.

      Now on the issue of talking down, I try not to do that, and I would hope that each side of an issue tries not to do that, which I know, at least I think you said I don’t do that. As far as educate, is that not one of the reasons we are all here? is to learn something? I know even as a biologist, I always learn from talking to other people, just because I have a degree, does not mean I have learned all there is to learn.

  91. pointswest Says:

    This is an article about the studies build storage reservoirs and maybe to revamp the entire irrition system in Henry’s Fork. It includes a possible rebuild of the Teton Dam although I think that is a very, very long shot.

    I was involved in this since I have proposed a couple ideas that have gotton attention. One was to build an off-stream storage reservoir called Teton Lake just north of the Teton Canyon and the other is to build a second dam at Island Park Reservior to create off-stream storage on the west end of IP Reservior.

    http://www.uvsj.com/news/article_8e80c5e6-5342-11df-ba49-001cc4c002e0.html

    I will post more later.

  92. pointswest Says:

    The study was originally scoped to cover the Teton and Fall Rivers and included my proposal to not rebuild the failed Teton Dam but to, instead, build off-stream storage in Hog Hollow just to the north. Everyone seems to like this idea and I think it was my idea that won enough political support to fund the study.

    I think it is a good idea.

    The study was recently expanded to include conservation and perhaps a revamp of the irrigation system and was expanded to include the entire Henry’s Fork drainage that includes the Teton and Fall Rivers. I have good reason to believe it was expanded to include the Henry’s Fork because of another proposal of mine to add off-stream storage at Island Park Reservoir since the BOR likes this idea too. For one thing, IP Reservior would then act like a silt trap and we would never have to worry about a repeat of 1977 when irrigators drew IP down so far that rain washed sediments into the Henry’s Fork and severely silted the river.

    I presented these ideas, last summer, to several conservation groups, including TU, Friends of the Teton, Idaho Rivers United and other and also presented to the IDWR in Idaho Falls.

    Below is a link to the power point presentation I used.

    http://www.points-west.com/TetonBasinStudy.ppt

    I first proposed the Teton Lake idea to the BOR about six years ago. I proposed the west End IP off-stream storage to the IDWR (and BOR) about a year and a half ago.

    I personally would like to see the whole system revamped from Henry’s Lake to Roberts.

  93. Alana Jensen Says:

    Twenty female elk are now wearing GPS collars as they roam the Idaho National Laboratory Site. Idaho State University wildlife biologist Ryan Long is coordinating the elk study for his graduate work. Funding for the study comes from the Department of Energy through Stollers Environmental Surveillance, Education and Research Program. ESER provides funding for research at several universities, including ISU.

    Information collected about the desert elk will be compared to research currently being conducted on an elk herd in Oregon that occupies more typical forested habitat. The collars record location, activity and movement data for elk that started claiming a more permanent place on site ground a few decades ago.
    http://www.stoller-eser.com/videos.htm

  94. Jeremy B. Says:

    Conference Announcement:

    I know that some folks that post here have attended the North American Wolf Conference in Chico, MT in past years. As the conference hasn’t been offered in a few years, I’d like to make you aware of an alternative (besides Carnivores). Colorado State University is hosting a conference in Estes Park (Sept. 27 to Oct. 1) that is focused on the social aspects of wildlife conservation and management. More information:

    Pathways to Success 2010 Conference: A conference and training program designed to address the myriad issues that arise as people and wildlife struggle to coexist in a sustainable and healthy manner. We invite you to join us in this critical wildlife conservation effort. Our mission is to increase professionalism and effectiveness in the human dimensions of fisheries and wildlife management field.

    http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/nrrt/hdfw/index.html

  95. Nancy Says:

    Ralph, enjoyed the photo of the vultures. I’ve been in this part of southwest Montana for close to 20 years and had not seen any vultures until about 4 years ago. A pair came in and nested and then last year there were 4. It will be interesting to see what shows up this year.

  96. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Jon;
    Thank you Jon, that is so unkind chasing cats up trees with a bunch of dogs, seems to me down right mean, sorry for being this late with a reply !

  97. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Save bears
    That’s fair, no question directed to you,and as I said before,you are one who mentions food, for hunting that’s is fine with me. As I said before I do not like hunting, only to put the hide over a fireplace.As for questions, first question ,how did germ warefare start in this country? Who started it ,and who was it inflicted upon?

    • Save bears Says:

      It is widely stated that smallpox laced blankets were given to Native Americans, but there is also evidence to the contrary as well, there is really only one documented case of smallpox laced blankets being given to native Americans and that was done by a British officer in 1763..

      http://www.bluecorncomics.com/smallpox.htm

    • Save bears Says:

      Here is another account of how smallpox came to the new world.

      http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_smallpox.htm

    • Save bears Says:

      Richie,

      If you do a google search using the term smallpox laced blankets, there are quite a few different resources out there about this particular subject, a lot of good reading…

    • WM Says:

      Richie,

      I am interjecting my comment at this point, for a purpose. You (or other readers) may want to go back further in the string of posts to find your initial comments which resulted in my response.

      You forget some of us actually live in and experience the West on a daily basis. Some of us also read, as you do. But, we have even spent time in many of the historic Nez Perce places. We know a fair amount about Chief Joseph, the Nez Perce, and the other tribes of Idaho, Eastern Washington, Oregon and Montana. I have visited a number of these places over a good portion of my life, and even sat in a few special spots, on hot summer days and in snow storms, closed my eyes and envisioned what it might have been like to be in this very place +/-200 years ago, with others of that time (putting myself in role of either Native American or European explorer/settler), doing what they did to stay alive and interact with their family, friends, and maybe not so friendly neighbors. I have ridden legendary Appaloosa horses, and been fortunate to travel on parts of what was the Lewis & Clark Trail (mostly roads now), and spend time in the adjacent wild areas L & C never saw, because the were “thru – hikers,” to use a modern term. I think I even mentioned here, on another thread, that I was hoping an early snow melt this year might allow for a trip on the old Nez Perce “Ne Me Poo,” or Lolo Trail/Motorway, just north of the Lochsa River in early June, about the time L & C went through on their return, against the sage advice of their Nez Perce hosts. That area has been pelted with Spring snow storms this past week, and has in excess of 88 inches of snow, so a trip for me will be unlikely this year.

      This is a part of the area- the Lolo elk units- we have been discussing that has allegedly fewer elk because of a growing wolf population. My own theory for L&C not seeing elk or deer and being hungry for lack of game, is that these animals would likely not have been on their narrow route of travel, largely along a ridge, or gaining and losing elevation to get to the ridge. On their trip west they had no time to explore lower elevation drainages that would have been better habitat in mid-September 1804 (it was cold and it snowed several days on their route of travel, and they had trouble just finding and staying on the trail in those conditions. On their return, in early June 1805, they were warned that there would still be deep snow on their route of travel. Now why would an elk or even a deer be in that country during that time? They would be at lower elevations, valley bottoms, where there was better food and shelter, and it would be warmer.

      Richie, it is not my intent to talk down to you. However, I feel sometimes your comments are like a shot gun blast, each issue a pellet, coming out of the barrel hot and close together, then quickly with distance (time) scattering far from each other, but maintaining some of their heat from friction with the air. For anyone trying to keep track, or respond intelligently, is……. well, challenging.

      As for Indian gaming and casinos, you should be aware that there were gambling games long before the white man, involving fairly high stakes. A few tribes had very sophisticated gambling games that occupied much free time for the men. As a side note, I am hopeful the current trend of huge capital investments in resorts and casino gaming will provide sustained economic success for enterprising tribes to become independent; of some, I am very skeptical (Some will fail leaving massive debt to the tribes and contractors to whom money is owed, possibly with little recourse for creditors because of tribal sovereign status for which bankruptcy or legal debt liquidation rules may not apply). I believe they would be better served by planning their future around investments in real business enterprises that make something, employ people who actually learn skills (other than card dealing and beverage hostessing, or picking up their shared profit checks from casino operations) and contribute to their communities and society in general.

  98. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Jeff E;
    If you would read, I said my opinion, but then again,this is exactly what I mean, you do not pay attention. It is my opinion I do not like trophy hunting,that’s it man, period. What is known to me is, babies,wildlife,the environment are the most unprotected things in this world. Just look at the gulf!Will BP really pay for what they did?
    Will Haliburton pay, they own the process for the rig,or will transocean pay the real cost, I think they are called transocean.Big bussiness does it again,I like earth Justice,defenders, NRDC,this is what I believe in,if you do not like it,don’t respond.

  99. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To WM;
    I like your feedback and your knowledge of the Nez Perce, I been to riggins inn, and near by white bird. Then took part of the Nez perce trail, went to Wallowa valley, past the great plains and I was in the town of wallowa, as chief Joseph was a tourist trap. Stayed at the lake lodge,went to snake river,you guys are really lucky. Went down the river,but I must say in Maine,the rafts are different, you know, four on each side,more breathtaking.I must go over your statement, must read it slower. I will be their in June or May,this year, and I am looking for some land or a small house in the Grand Teton valley. Look guys you live in a wonderful place. I would love to travel in the bitterroot mountains, and go the Chief Joseph’s last stand in Bear Paws mountain. Sorry f I offended you wm, and any body else.

  100. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To Sb;
    The reason I asked,in a class I had as an elective,
    socialogy, it was on the east coast, I forget the tribe and the general. But their was a big war ,Indian verus early settlers,and it turned the tide of the war. The general gave blankets with small pox, the indians took the blankets as a sign of good faith. Half of them got infected and died,it turned the tide of the war. According to the book,if the indians would have won,we would not have America,as we know it today. I will look up what you gave me sb, and thank you very much.

  101. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To WM;
    I have a cousin who lives in Connecticut,he had a job in one of the casion’s up their. Believe me they take of their own, he was an electrician, and they picked their own for that position, and he got a teller’s position. Now the ones who set these places up ,went to college’s for bussiness,law etc.So they went to the white man’s schools,and now they are playing our game. I made a comment,good for them,now they are playing our game. Back to Chief Joseph,Chief Joseph was not allowed to go back to his homeland,even after several attempts in front of congress. The congress always,gave him a standing ovation,but always voted to keep him in Louisiana, that to me is very sad and unjust. When Einstein talked with Chief Joseph, he called him a great man,why couldn’t congress see this. These are my problems I have with our government, same for wildlife, it’s all the same thing to me, people just do not look at the entire picture..

  102. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To sb;
    I was reading your comment on eating the meat and trophy hunting. I still do not like trophy hunting, go shoop clay pigions, this is probably harder to do than killing a bear from a tree, sitting in a tree stand and killing a mt. lion or bear or other wild animal. SB, I just don’t like it.

    • Save bears Says:

      That is fine Richie, Don’t like it, that is your right..but remember there are others that do like it and it is still legal…again, I don’t hunt bears or cats, but I have set in a tree stand while hunting deer..

      Clay pigeons, don’t taste to good, so I will will stick to deer, elk, moose…etc..

  103. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    shoot, sorry

  104. Richard Giallanzo,nj Says:

    To sb;
    Clay pigions can’t be that bad tasting,just put salt on it,everything tastev better with salt.

    • WM Says:

      Richie,

      It is a bit off track from your intended dialog with SB, but here is a thought about clay pigeons.

      Have you ever thought about or seen the residual environmental degradation that results from shooting clay pigeons? Absolutely terrible. Nothing eats these circular hardened clay disks hurled across the sky by little mechanical throwing machines; they do not degrade very easily because they are mildly fired – and hardened; and, they are often bright colors which show on the ground even if just small chards remain after a hit. They are shot with shotguns, which usually involve multiple lead pellets which has its own negative environmental impacts (although steel, bismuth or non-lead alloy are becoming more common). Entirely different midset and different type of gun. Gun range clean-ups where lead has been sprayed across the landscape for years, can cost millions of dollars.

    • Save bears Says:

      WM,

      Actually in some areas of the country, pigs will nibble on the clay pigeons, which in most cases is fatal for them, every box of clays I have ever purchased clearly states on it, do not use around swine pens, or in areas inhabited by swine…

    • WM Says:

      SB,

      Maybe you have stumbled on to a method for reducing numbers of feral hogs in the South. Ralph posted a thread a few weeks back on the huge amount of environmental damage hogs were doing down there, and how tough it is to reduce their numbers.

    • Save bears Says:

      WM,

      YOU KNOW how that would go over! LOL, lets poison the pigs, I can see a protest mounting already!


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