Phantom Hill wolf killed

The first of Idaho’s only, sort of, semi-protected only by private money, wolf pack is shot in the wolf hunt-

Lynne Stone reported this earlier in a comment

Phantom Hill wolf killed. 29 33 wolves shot in Idaho this season. By Jon Duval. Idaho Mountain Express Staff Writer.

Protecting this locally popular wolf pack has been a project by Defenders of Wildlife. It has cost a lot of money because there are so many bands of domestic sheep that invade the area — are trucked in — every June to October, but it shows it can be done with minimal losses of sheep.

The protection of the pack has been controversial. Wolf haters don’t like it on general principle. Some conservationists pointing to the inherent tokenism of the effort and the irony of spending money to protect weak animals (domestic sheep) that don’t belong in the rugged mountains and graze on taxpayer’s dime, decry the Phantoms as a “boutique” pack.

60 Responses to “Phantom Hill wolf killed”

  1. gline Says:

    “There’s at least nine or 10 wolves remaining in the Phantom Hill pack,” he said. “It’s difficult to say exactly, as we didn’t see them in a group the last time we flew over the area.”

    If this is the second wolf killed in that area (Wood River Valley) is fish and wildlife keeping track of the negative effects of disbursement and displacement on the pack because of the hunt? Who is keeping formal, scientific track of the negative effects of this hunt on packs, besides this website. Logically, it seems that a species with a century of hatred deserves this. I realize the controversy, but where is the logic?

    I hope so. Let me repost the questions I think should be answered if at all possible by the hunt. Wolf hunt information that needs to be collected. Ralph Maughan

  2. gline Says:

    *per the statesman in the same article, but first paragraph says first wolf, killed, then later this paragraph:

    “The wolf was the second killed in the state’s Southern Mountains wolf zone, which includes the Wood River Valley and extends east across the Pioneer, White Knob, Lost River, Lemhi and Beaverhead mountain ranges to the Montana border”

    knowing how far wolves can travel… perhaps the “first wolf” was part of the phantoms?

    I doubt it. This hunt area is huge. Ralph Maughan

  3. jerryB Says:

    gline…..when this wolf killing season is over, it will be time to demand answers such as those that you pose and Ralph’s “Wolf hunt information that needs to be collected” as well as lots of other questions. It’s already apparent that some of their theories are misguided, like the North Yellowstone hunt as one example.
    I have a feeling that Ms Sime will be a very busy “wolf manager” when the killing season is over.

  4. Sal_N Says:

    JerryB

    I have a feeling that Ms Sime will be a very busy “wolf manager” when the killing season is over.

    do you mean when the season officially closes or when the shooting stops?
    They will get the quota before the general elk season opens in all of Park county, but I don’t think the wolf killing will stop.

  5. Sal_N Says:

    I may have to eat my words a bit.

    MT suspended the hunting of wolves in WM3 today per their website.

  6. Cris Waller Says:

    What’s the deal with that suspension? Is there something going on in the area where they don’t want wold hunters out and about? If they were worried about so many wolves being killed there, then I would think they would shut it down completely, not close it for 2 weeks.

  7. Cris Waller Says:

    And, as for the dead Phantom Hill wolf, as I posed in another thread, I wonder if it was Jewel, as named by the WWC- http://www.westernwatersheds.org/news-media/online-messenger/meet-jewel-phantom-hill-wolf-pack-member-b445 She seems to be the right age and has a collar, as the dead wolf did- and she’s described as a curious young wolf.

  8. Ralph Maughan Says:

    Chris,

    Could be. As you know Idaho Fish and Game doesn’t like wolves or any other individual animals named. It compromises scientific objectivity.

    The unstated argument is that it promotes concern about the fate of an individual animals, and, of course, unlike humans they don’t deserve any consideration.

  9. Jay Says:

    Well, should all elk and deer be named? What happens when Jewel kills Jessica the elk calf–should we root for one over the other, depending upon who has the sweetest sounding name?

  10. Cris Waller Says:

    My underlying philosophy about conservation is that if we, as humans, respect the rights of every individual, we thereby conserve entire populations. Populations are not sentient entities; they cannot suffer or experience pleasure, they don’t have an existence that matters to them in a coherent way,,,but that’s food for a philosophy discussion board!

    Although I am against blatant anthropomorphism, I see nothing wrong with emphasizing the fact that every animal is a unique individual. Because, if course, they are, and we do them a disservice if we regard them as faceless, identical, replaceable units. And many people who might not otherwise have noticed or formed an opinion about wild wolves first had their interest in wolves sparked by stories of a particular individual wolf. This holds true for other animals as well- I assume we all grew up reading about Elsa or Akela or Fiver or Lobo, King of the Currumpaw. Sure, not all of those stories were realistic- but in how many of us did they spark a wish to learn about the real animals?

  11. Lynne Stone Says:

    Thanks for making a new thread on the Phantom Hill pack. The wolf shot by a hunter in Eagle Creek, five north of Ketchum, was B445, about 18 months old, and weight about 75 lbs. She was often the nanny wolf to the pups.

    I named B445 “Jewel” after she happened upon my dog and me in June. She had such silky movements, was so beautiful, and the name Jewel just fit. Her older sister. B326, is “Judith”, so named by one of the foremost wolf experts in the world, after he caught and collared her in 2007. (She used to be “Judas” because she was the first Phantom collared, but then her name was changed.)

    Last night out in Eagle Creek, wolf hunters were using coyote calls to try and lure in the Phantoms, who are still hanging around, looking for Jewel. One hunter was using a spotlight, illegal, and he shut it off when he saw me.

  12. Valerie Bittner Says:

    Cris and Ralph,

    Thanks for your progressive and thoughtful perspectives. I couldn’t agree more.

    I wonder if it is too anthropomorphic to suggest that the indiscriminate killing of these individual wolves that make up “extended family units” (USFWS) — and which cutting-edge empirical evidence has shown — are so much like humanity in fundamental ways — is akin, on a moral basis, to sanctioned murder, where the ends sought are economic in nature?

  13. Slow Elk Poacher Says:

    I spend a lot of time in the mountains in this area. Lately, i’ve decided it’s time to start documenting the idiocy. Lynne, if you have a good video camera, I recommend taking it with you.

    These people will poach, and exterminate packs, if they can. It’s time to catch them in the act. If you see spotlight activity.. by all means, document this stuff. The more of us with eyes out there in the mountains, the more chance that we have at catching illegal activities. Idaho FIsh and Game is already proven to be a joke, and just in it to make money. We got to go beyond them.

  14. Lynne Stone Says:

    gline – I believe that IDFG is trying to keep track of the Phantoms. Here’s my count as of June 1st:
    B333 alpha male (“Papa”)
    Alpha female (“Journey”)
    B326, 3-year old female (“Judith”)
    2-year old male (“Shadow” – the movie star*)
    Six subadults (yearlings)

    Three of the pack are now known dead:
    B333 – hit by a pickup truck in June on a rainy night)
    B445 – killed by a hunter
    One yearling – shot by Wildlife Services in the Sawtooth Valley

    This leaves seven pack members plus two pups = nine total.
    The loss of the alpha male B333, has Phantom followers guessing on who will assume pack leadership. The breeding female is older, and my bet is that one of her off-spring (Judith or Shadow – if they survive the hunting season) will find a mate and lead the Phantoms.

    With regards to naming wolves, most agency people don’t like it, which of course, is a good reason to do it. Why not make this wolf work a little fun, when so much of it is heartbreaking?

    *Shadow was filmed jumping into a pasture with three malamute dogs, who quickly ran him off, tail tucked between his legs. The video has been widely played on TV.

  15. Valerie Bittner Says:

    Addendum: I should like to add as well where the ends sought are political in nature.

  16. Sal_N Says:

    Lynne Stone,

    your comment: “Last night out in Eagle Creek,..”
    Is it legal to hunt after sunset in Idaho. I am in CA and we are allowed to hunt from sun up to sun down. I did not read the hunting rules for Idaho.

  17. ProWolf in WY Says:

    One hunter was using a spotlight, illegal, and he shut it off when he saw me.

    I sure hope people like this get busted. Obviously this person is not a true hunter.

  18. pointswest Says:

    “Well, should all elk and deer be named? What happens when Jewel kills Jessica the elk calf–should we root for one over the other, depending upon who has the sweetest sounding name?”

    How about when Jessica rips Ol’ Yellers bowels open and he slowly dies over the next few days in the family’s living room? 😉

  19. Lynne Stone Says:

    Sal – I just posted this on twitter/phantomtoo: Wolf hunt observers: IDFG Citizens Against Poaching Hot line 1.800.632.5999. No shooting legal after 7:36 pm tonite. Spotlights illegal!

    Shooting is allowed a half-hour before sunrise and half-hour after sundown. The sun sets at 7:06 tonight. It was actually an agency person that suggested it would be a good idea to put the poaching hotline and legal times out daily on twitter. Quite a few friends are following me, and then they tweet it out to their friends, and so forth … . Amazing.

  20. Ralph Maughan Says:

    Pointswest,

    You joke, but that’s not a crazy idea for humans. Remember what we are. Romans cheered on their favorite gladiators urging them to slaughter each other.

    Today some people love to watch animals fight, and they give them names.

    Humans are also capable of great empathy as well as premeditated viciousness.

    It probably is best that animals are merely numbered, but that won’t stop people from naming them. And I might hope that Jewel got a few anonymous sheep before she was shot. Jewel at least was given a name, roamed free, and lived the average age for a wolf.

  21. Lynne Stone Says:

    The Mountain Express Phantom wolf story has generated 210 comments on its blog. I objected to several posts that were racist (the Phantoms are an all black pack), and others containing female slurs and such. I don’t read other blogs much besides Ralph’s, but it’s an eye opener to see what’s out there, or rather who is out there. Scarey.

  22. timz Says:

    And some wonder why Idaho is looked upon the way it is by others in the U.S. Of course the ilk who write stuff like that probably don’t/aren’t bright enough to care.

  23. Ralph Maughan Says:

    I read it too.

    They really are a stereotype and remind me of the movie Deliverance.

  24. Save bears Says:

    Prowolf says:

    “I sure hope people like this get busted. Obviously this person is not a true hunter.”

    He is not a hunter in any sense of the word, wolves are classified as big game animals, and spotlighting big game animals in most states is a violation, wolves are not an unclassified species! Jacklighting has been illegal for many years now, in fact it was illegal when I started hunting over 40 years ago..

    This person is NOT a hunter, he is a criminal, when people who call themselves hunters, but do illegal acts, they are no longer a hunter, they are poachers, poachers are criminals, I really wish people would get that straight.

  25. pointswest Says:

    Ralph,

    I want to see wolves in Idaho as much as anyone else here. I like wolves as much as any other animal.

    I can accept wolves for what they are an believe we need to manage the land, the people, and the wildlife so wolves live on this planet forever.

    I have no problems with names for wolves as I have no problems with names for cats or children.

    Keepin it real.

  26. timz Says:

    People even write songs about it.

    “theres another brazen day
    things kinda move that way
    good lord above, now he don’t have to fuss
    not for good hardy people like us
    born with a weary eye
    plain to see, my oh my
    these crazy ideas, oh they don’t last long
    but they come and they go in america
    and we’re staring at the world from my home little idaho
    and we’re staring at the world from my home little idaho
    theres another fallen man
    with hair I don’t understand
    its just bout as long as my wife marlene
    don’t it all kinda keep you to wondering
    staring at the stars above
    wonder what are we made of
    some folks say that they know right away
    so you look on a cloud for a lullaby
    and we’re staring at the world from my home little idaho”
    The BoDeans

  27. Ralph Maughan Says:

    Pointswest,

    I don’t really care one way or another either, but I wanted to make it clear that giving an individual animal a name makes a difference of some kind, and that’s why people want to do it (or don’t want it done).

  28. pointswest Says:

    “One hunter was using a spotlight, illegal, and he shut it off when he saw me.”

    Alls it takes is one unprejudiced witness to convict a misdamenor. Did you get his license plate number and a description of the hunter?

  29. April Clauson Says:

    Not to change subject, but I just read on YNet that Montana has/will suspend the back country wolf hunt as of tomorrow, too many back country wolves have been killed already….they will re open it Oct 25th with big game hunt?? at any rate makes no sense to stop it now just to start it again….our wild life services and fish and game really are something, won’t say what…..

  30. Jeff N. Says:

    “How about when Jessica rips Ol’ Yellers bowels open and he slowly dies over the next few days in the family’s living room?”

    What is it about anti-wolfers that makes them have such a fascination with the way a wolf attacks something from the backside. They seem to really enjoy vividly describing how “the wolf tore out the bowels, or the rectum….etc”

    Very strange and disturbing on a certain level.

  31. pointswest Says:

    Ralph,

    I just saw some humor there in the discussion about naming animals pretty names. My wife has names for all of the fish in her aquarium and has conversations with them. I find that humorous and make fun of it too.

    I can be very insensitive sometimes.

  32. pointswest Says:

    “What is it about anti-wolfers that makes them have such a fascination with the way a wolf attacks something from the backside. They seem to really enjoy vividly describing how “the wolf tore out the bowels, or the rectum….etc”

    I’m not anti-wolf.
    Wolves to not attack from the backside.
    Bowels are opened on the underside, the belly.
    Jessica was an elk calf that grew into the mighty antlered elk.

  33. Lynne Stone Says:

    The sheep bands are trailing out of the mountains. The first to come is at Boulder Creek tonight. There will be a Defenders “Guardian” there with the sheep, to keep the wolves away. I support the DOW program and it has saved the Phantoms as 12,000 sheep grazed in their territory. How ironic, that the biggest threat is likely to come now, not from sheep, or ranchers, but an army of hunters, hell bent on wiping out this pack. After reading the horrible comments on the Mt Express blog, well, I’m out the door to Eagle Creek. Talk to ya all in a few hours.

  34. Sal_N Says:

    The state of MT made a startling discovery recently.
    the killing of wolves in the back county mean:
    “means there is little likelihood hunting will reduce livestock attacks.”

    I want to be like them when I grow up…. very very smart.

    here is the article in the bozeman chronicle.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MT_HUNTING_WOLVES_SUSPENSION_MTOL-?SITE=MTBOZ&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

    Sal_N and all. I just posted about this, so if you want to discuss the suspension, there is a new thread for it. Ralph Maughan

  35. Cris Waller Says:

    “Jessica was an elk calf that grew into the mighty antlered elk.”

    A bull elk named Jessica? All the cow elk must have been snickering behind his back.

  36. pointswest Says:

    “A bull elk named Jessica? All the cow elk must have been snickering behind his back.”

    You are so generder biased and sexist!

  37. Tim Says:

    I saw that also April. JMO but i think they are closing it so that all 12 aren’t taken from the same small area. I think the first lesson to be learned from this hunt is Montana has management areas to large and they need to split them up with smaller quotas in more wolf zones.

    Please note my new post and thus a new thread on this matter. Ralph

  38. gline Says:

    I wonder if they stop the hunt before the original end date, how would stopping it be enforced??? How do you put “Pandora” back in the box?

  39. Chris Mortensen Says:

    “And I might hope that Jewel got a few anonymous sheep before she was shot”. Hope you’re proud of that quote, Ralph. Livestock haters don’t sound any more reasonable to me than wolf haters.

  40. ProWolf in WY Says:

    Am I missing something with this Jessica the elk thing?

  41. Leslie Says:

    “The Mountain Express Phantom wolf story has generated 210 comments on its blog….but it’s an eye opener to see what’s out there, or rather who is out there. Scary.”

    Yes, I’ve followed a few of the comments on stories in the Gazette that Ralph has posted and its like having a bunch of ignorant, drunk, scary people in my living room. There is so much hatred out there for wolves.

    In addition, I work weekly at the BBHC. They have a question posted above their wolf section on how you think the mgmt. problem with wolves and ranchers can be solved. You can write on paper your comments. What’s even scarier is that kids drop their comments in the box and their answers are filled with the propaganda and hatred towards wolves of their parents. Frankly, all this is difficult for me to emotionally understand–maybe intellectually, but not emotionally. It appears that it will take many generations before there is an acceptance of wolves here.

  42. Ralph Maughan Says:

    What do you bet a lot of them are same kind of people who want to assassinate our President? Remember those children in Rexburg, Idaho.

  43. Leslie Says:

    Yes, exactly. Because invariably the comments are peppered with the words “liberal”, “granola eater”, or “why don’t you go back to where you came from”. Of course, these peoples’ reference to ownership of ‘their’ (our public) land, or how things have changed so much for the worse with the reintroduction of wolves, is based on a narrow memory of less than 100 years. We need to expand their ‘memory’ to at least 500, 1000, or 5000 years for a true snapshot of the Land.

  44. Lynne Stone Says:

    Chris – I can assure you that little Jewel didn’t get any sheep. The Phantoms were accused of killing one ewe in July, but an expert who looked at the carcass said the ewe had a broken leg already and it was hard to say what killed it. Wildlife Services said it was the Phantoms.

    There was an attack up Newman Creek in July, when over 200 ewes were left unattended, and the Phantoms came in and killed a dozen. Perhaps this was revenge for all the times that the sheep and dogs had come within yards of where the Phantoms were trying to raise their pups. Only two Phantom pups have been seen. Something happened to the rest.

    My feeling — I want wolves to be safe and allowed to live. Next, as long as sheep are on the landscape, then they deserve to be well herded, guarded (esp. at night), and able to raise their lambs for the very short time that they exist, before being shoved onto a truck, and sent 17 hours to Denver to be slaughtered.

    I am also very concerned about the sheep dogs — that they be treated with kindness, given vet care when needed, and that most be neutered, except for the few chosen to breed.

    Lastly, sometimes things go to hell, and predators get into sheep. Sheepman should live with this. There are lots of reasons on why sheep die, neglect included. Wildlife Services should be banned from killing wolves, or any predator on behalf of the livestock industry.

  45. pointswest Says:

    A friend is someone who knows everything about you and still likes you — Unknown Wise Person

    I don’t mind if wolves kill their own brothers and sisters or their pups or if the chew baby lambs or baby elk. I like them anyway. They’re just another species that have their niche on this planet after millions of years of evolution. They deserve to live here as much as we do.

    We don’t need to deny or make excuses for their behavior.

  46. bob jackson Says:

    The hatred seen today was the same with outfitters and staff in Thorofare. There are some very debased folks out there.

    The sliming of human feces on beds I talked of in an earlier post is the types you are dealing with. I had them for 30 years and I saw all the time what they were like away from “civilization”.

    In the case of wolves, these folks are not driven so much by hatred, but rather the hatred of being controlled by this civilization. With the chance to kill what others want to preserve they are in essence saying “We are killing you”.

    You will never know the depravity in some of these camps as seen towards the end of the season. The hunters are gone and now is the camps time to show who they really are before they have to break camp for the year. The whiskey comes out, the slinking in the woods commences and the sideways looks on the trail or, even worse, off the trail is something to behold.

    Every one actually needs to see it. It is no better than the worst slums. The only thing is all those pistols and belts full of ammo are out in full display. It scares all those wardens, FS and rangers out of the country. For once the “boys” don’t brown the law they despise. They make fun of them to their faces. Then you see those law boys take desk jobs. They know they have been played all those years. It is written in our log books. Rangers and wilderness guards there 9 or ten years. They feel so betrayed by these outfitters.

    What you are fighting are people who are fighting themselves….and they aren’t very good at figuring out how to do it. They will want to finish it, just like the Cowboys of “Tombstone” who thought they had the Earps down. They know they have only limited time to do this. Look for them to forgo elk this year because they will want to kill one more you, I mean wolf.

    And look for wolf biologists, especially the ones who tried to get along or compromise, to transfer out. They will go with their tails between their legs and those tails will not be fluffy either.

  47. Lynne Stone Says:

    Bob – your words really hit home: “What you are fighting are people who are fighting themselves…”

    And re your quote about wolf biologists, am wondering if those who seem to have turned tail on wolves, would come back around, if politics changed.

  48. Ralph Maughan Says:

    I think a lot of people are attracted to wolves or repelled by them because they read humanity into them more than they do other animals.

    Wolves live in packs, which are similar to human families, and some some wolves seem to act brutal to their packmates, some seem lazy, some seem courageous, secondary females sneak off in January to have sex with wolves from other packs, wolves kill to live just like we do. Some people think they should have better table manners.

    When people say wolves are wonderful or a scourge, they are really giving us an insight on themselves, not on wolves.

  49. pointswest Says:

    Wolves dominate by chastisement. The alpha male and alpha female chastise other members of the pack to prevent them from breeding. In this way, they utilize the lower ranking members of the pack to serve and protect their pups with the reward that only their genes are passed on. Wolf packs, then, are typically an extended family with only one mature breeding pair and the rest some level of pup.

    Something very similar arose in Western Civilization, particularly with rise of Christianity. We have since been ruled by warrior elites or a nobility and call ourselves the children of God. Sexuality was severely repressed (as compared to the pre-Christian era) and we often call each other brother and sister in religious rituals. To this day, the political right is the wealthy and ruling class, they are often militant or warlike, they do not believe in equality, they believe in severe punishments for crimes, they are ardent supporters of what they call “family values,” they believe in sexual repression, and are believers in even the most unbelievable of Christian dogma to rationalize their behavior.

  50. SR25Stoner Says:

    ” The sliming of human feces on beds I talked of in an earlier post is the types you are dealing with. I had them for 30 years and I saw all the time what they were like away from “civilization”.

    I don’t know Bob, I think the majority of these wolf hunters truly believe they are saving elk. Perhaps your sliming human types are running the I.D.F.G. I have watched them closely for years, even went to meetings to disagree with certain details they were getting ready to authorize, like 200 extra cow elk permits in unit 43-44 some years ago, and the 200 extra doe permits, or and open general muzzle loader hunt in unit 52. And they have done this in other hunt units..

    And the same thing basically went on, many many hunters came forth and voiced their non approval of these extra hunts because several of us believed it would create and over kill, and it did. The hunters on the ground are credible, a lot of anger comes from telling them their fools, or rednecks and such, if you want them to think about other philosophy’s which are important then sugar goes a lot farther than salt.

    I see many changes in the forests. I believe these wolves are very efficient at what they do, I believe some body miscalculated this scenario, and I believe I have never seen these ranges around me at full ungulate carrying capacity in my life, and I believe we reached full carrying capacity with wolves a helluva lot faster than anyone expected including myself.

    When folks consider Lynne’s anguish, especially Lynne, consider that those people out there doing this hunting also feel about elk as you do about the wolf. You believe they are wiping out the wolf, they believe the wolf is wiping out the elk. Getting into heated exchanges with each others reaches nasty insinuations coming from both sides. The problem is both sides are attacking the other sides beliefs, and when you incorporate insults, say good by to rational reasoning then. Then the, I’m going to show you mentality takes over..

    I’ve seen people call these elk tame, hunters want easy to kill tame elk, nonsense, I have also seen people claim the wolf lover wants to see tame wolves from roadsides for photo ops.. Perhaps some do from both sides, it is not going to happen. You must get out and hunt, either with weapon or camera.

    The problem is not us, meaning you and me, the problem is government not doing what either of us wishes. The problem of how to deal with a surplus of wolves should have not been ignored until we arrived at this situation. What to do with surplus wolves. Surplus elk were for the hunters, to eat. They don’t have that luxury any longer. So perhaps the lazy hunters, or the older hunters are angry.

    Perhaps they should buy a Mule. ha ha. I guess in short I am trying to say, to see these elk in decline to this extent pains me.. It hurts. I see others in pain over this wolf hunt, and that pains me. I chose to not participate in the wolf hunt, to show them a compromise. I’m still waiting for them to come around to recognizing elk lovers pain and stop bashing them. Maybe we all win together then..

  51. Lynne Stone Says:

    pointswest – good grief, you’ve really gone overboard this time. Weird.

  52. pointswest Says:

    Weird but true. You did know that wolves behave like this?

  53. bob jackson Says:

    Pointsweet

    You do know all organized religon, “bullgroups” in corporations, Masons and Elk’s clubs, knitting groups, schools and PTA Associations are simply artifical outgrowths from loss of blood extended families don’t you?

    Did you ever wonder why hunter-gatherer peoples never send out missionaries to convert savages and heathens to their “faith”?…even though their “spirituality” was always most important to them?

    The only problems with all these artifical substitutes is these afreak show “families” end up applying all the emotions developed over millenia…emotions that can not be applied outside of “blood”. Thus we get presidents and CEO’s who demand LOYALTY when there is no way this can be upheld. Then we get BETRAYED.

    Until we understand our roots all dysfunction will persist as symptom management..and this will be incrementally dependent on that level of dysfunctionality. I am not saying we all need to go back to our tribal beginnings, but rather the need to understand why we act the way we do.

    Otherwise, we will always have everyone in the company, everyone but the clueless corporate artifical bull group, saying, “What were they thinking? Why did they promote HIM? He is a real zero”.

  54. Leslie Says:

    25stoner, I think you are right when you talk about ‘saving the elk’ and ‘lazy hunters’. I’ve talked with people who are fired up and vehement, and others who are calmer…but all have this interest in elk. Their interest comes from the hunt. Their interest comes from what used to be and how they used to see elk along the road that you could almost walk up to.

    Although I hear their cry, its all oriented towards what they have known in their limited lifetime, what I might call “lifetime-centric”. As a botanist, I see this same mentality with fire and the west. Old timers tell you how we used to fight fires, how the place looked different then. But when they arrived 80-100 years ago, the landscape was already groomed by fires from the past. Smokey the Bear isn’t what helped our landscape but what got us into this mess of a forest of old trees and lots of underbrush.

    In my mind, elk and wolves have lived on this land longer than us humans. Wolves will never wipe out all the elk; only humans are capable of that travesty.

    Frankly, I question the whole idea of wildlife management.

  55. pointswest Says:

    The chastising power of the warrior elite has largely been watered down with the Protestant Reformation and later with the French and American Revolutions but during the height of Roman Catholic power in the early Middle Ages, the Lord of the Manner dictated all things sexual. He dictated who could and could not marry. He could choose who could marry who and if someone wanted to choose a bride for himself, he had to pay his Lord a fee. A Lord could, and some often did, have sex with brides on their wedding night and at other times. Only Lords could own land and Lords, with the supervision of his Bishop and the Pope, had life and death power over his subjects.

    The similarities to wolf society are very apparent. It is watered way down today since it has largely been thrown off, but some remnants are still with us.

    Let me just contrast our culture with another culture. In Peter Freuchen’s book of the Eskimos (Fosett Crest Printing, 1961), he writes that polyandry (wife with multiple husbands) was the norm. This was for good reason. The artic would only support a finite number of humans and Eskimos, for survival, had to control their populations. The only birth control available was infanticide. Since male children could hunt and provide more food, they were much more likely to survive at birth. The men were absolutely dependent on their women in the artic however. The skills to craft fur boots, gloves, and coats to withstand howling gales in temperatures of 60 below zero were absolutely essential for survival. It might take a girl several years to learn how to condition the furs, make the complicated cuts, and perform fine stitching used in a pair of seal ski boots. Check out an authentic pair of Eskimo boots some day. It would take a skilled woman several weeks or months to make a pair, assuming she already had the fur, the bone needles, and the sinews prepared with which to craft them. There were no bachelors in the arctic. The clothing was so important, women dominated the society and men had to have a wife to survive. Men had no choice but to share wives. They were so accustomed to sharing women that it was customary to offer sex to any male visitor to your lodge and it was considered impolite if you did not engage in sex with the hostess and remark to the host how pleasurable the experience was during the act.

    Not all cultures of the world are like the landed warrior elite culture of the Middle Ages that dominated society with chastisement.

  56. bob jackson Says:

    pointsweet,

    I am getting so hopped up!!!Tell me more of the Eskimos, Pleassseee????

    Although I do believe the basis for sharing had more to do with the inherent need for varied genetic input…just like Ghengis Kahn advised his people to sleep and marry with the conquered from far away lands.

    But lets forget about all that basic stuff for now. Just tell me more of what you know of igloos and those long winter nights…with blizzards raging and the blood …….

  57. pointswest Says:

    “I am getting so hopped up!!!Tell me more of the Eskimos, Pleassseee???? ”

    Eskimos were very much into sex parties, wife swapping, and all sorts of free love. Peter Freuchen explained that, in the artic, where blizzards raged for six weeks at a time, sex was sometimes the only activity these people had since were holed up inside of their lodges.

    But before you go dreaming of Eskimo madens, be advised that Eskimos loved their women fat. They ate a lot of seal blubber and the like and the women, in particualr, were very fat. Mama Cass Elliot would have been a typically sized Eskimo woman. Also, you would have always been closely following some other man to the promised land.

    In all ancient cultures, after vanquishing an army, especially a barbarian army, they victors always took the women and childres as captives. It was the only humane thing to do in the ancient world as, without men, all would have starved to death. People today do not realize what a struggle it once was just to find enough to eat. The captive women and kids were usually given to the soldiers as slaves…women generally being concubines.

    The Indians of the West did this too. In many Indian tribes, prostitution was perfectly legal as long as the women shared her payment with her husband.

  58. ProWolf in WY Says:

    How did we get to this discussion of prostitution and polygamy?

  59. Lynne Stone Says:

    Pointswest – shut the fuck up. This thread is about the Phantom Hill wolves.

  60. Ralph Maughan Says:

    Well most threads lose their focus after a while, so I’ll just end this one now.

    Pointswest is doing some innovative thinking though.


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